Does Imane Khelif even have a DSD?

[BeLemonNow]

Giving the widespread reporting of a previous test showing Imane Khelif is biologically male / XY is there actually any evidence as to whether or not they even have a Disorder of Sexual Development (DSD). Or is this straightforward fraud? I know there was speculation before...

By DSD, going by NHS information, in this case I mean XY chromosomes with an abnormality causing a baby's genitals to look female (but not a DSD where there's XY and some sort of penis even if smaller than normal). To be clear, I am aware that these differences are usually apparent by puberty. It looks likely Imane went through male puberty.

Apologies if this has been covered in a different thread, but I cannot see it anywhere. I am aware that the only IOC criteria to compete at the Olympics was a female passport - ridiculous really - but that Imane has been claiming to be living as a woman since birth.

Weird perhaps, but I think the actual objection is that Khelif is male. All I've seen on mainstream media is a section of reports of XY/failing a gender test.

There is a narrative of a DSD - and also one unaware of at birth so not just underdeveloped. That seems to me started by a sympathetic media wanting to explain what a male looking person is doing in the women's section, granted with a female passport. It's plausible certainly. And that's stuck.

Khelif has also denied being transgender which could also result in a female passport in some countries. Again, we don't know if that's the case.

Of course there are apparent similarities with Caster Semenya, but the difference being she did acknowledge the existence of a DSD and is outwardly female, and I would happily use female pronouns in her case.

The objection is that Khelif has been through a male puberty, yes.

(That doesn’t invariably happen in XY DSDs btw.)

Given Khelif’s passport is for a female a DSD seems highly likely.

I’m still not sure quite what alternative you’re suggesting?
That Algeria just issued a male boxer with a female passport? I don’t think that’s it.

I've seen no credible suggestion that IK's passport or birth certificate are fraudulent. And as far as I know, Algeria does not acknowledge trans identities and has no process for changing the sex marker on either document.

The IOC made an announcement during the Paris games denying that this is 'a DSD case', and then issued a rapid apology and correction stating that it was 'not a trans case'. Rather implying that it is in fact a DSD one.

There's quite enough unevidenced speculation without adding more conspiracy theories to the mix.

DSDs are rare. Overall. But so are breadfruit trees. I reckon I could search every park and garden within 50 miles of my house and not find a single one. But go to a small island in Fiji and you can't throw a coconut without hitting half a dozen breadfruit trees. Things cluster. Unethical sports scouts know where to look.

@BeLemonNow Of course there are apparent similarities with Caster Semenya, but the difference being she did acknowledge the existence of a DSD and is outwardly female, and I would happily use female pronouns in her case.

You really think Caster Semanya is outwardly female? What with interviews where Semanya is wildly manspreading, and talking in a deep voice, and pictures in his autobiography where he is on a school trip as a teenager, wearing board shorts and nothing else, I really can't agree.

This is a photo of Caster Semenya at school, where there was a boys' uniform and a girls' uniform.

Semenya is standing on the left. Which uniform is Semenya wearing?

Semenya has a clearly broken voice in that clip.

During the Olympics there was a very detailed discussion on here about IK, so we actually now a lot about the case, including an impressive amount of expert knowledge about DSDs, chromosomes, gametes and the likes, and also the Algerian background to all this.

I don't think Semenya projects himself as female at all - I [in a minority here, as usual!] think that IK has a female 'public persona' in Algeria, unconvincing to us thought it is, that Semenya certainly doesn't have.

I suppose Semenya is more of a private individual, whereas IK is a national icon in Algeria, so being at least a bit female is central to the IK-as-icon image, whereas Semenya can do the whole cool dude sports guy with glamourous wife thing with apparent impunity.

I don't think Semenya projects himself as female at all…Semenya can do the whole cool dude sports guy with glamourous wife thing with apparent impunity

Actually, Semenya does identify as a woman, a different kind of woman, rather than as a man or as someone with a DSD.

www.theguardian.com/books/2023/nov/10/the-race-to-be-myself-by-caster-semenya-review-the-right-to-run

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/28/athlete-caster-semenya-interview-im-a-woman-im-a-different-woman

how does Semenya identify? “I don’t fit into those terms,” she says plainly, staring down the lens after I mention both intersex and DSD. “Those are [the media’s] own terms. I’m an African, I’m a woman, I’m a different woman. That’s the only term I can use.” Other labels feel, to her, like a European idea to easily categorise people. “‘This one is intersex, this one is this, this one is that.’ That’s their own belief – it’s not my belief. If I have a ‘disorder’, I don’t give a shit about that. The disorder doesn’t define me as a woman. Disorders don’t make you less of a woman – you’re just different.”

What someone says in international media interviews does not necessarily reflect how they live or how they actually see themselves.

Especially someone who may have had media training from parties interested in a specific narrative.

When earning a lot of money and fame involves continuing the claim to be a woman, there’s a strong incentive to do so. If there was no sports career in the offing, past or present, it seems likely Semenya would simply go through life as a man without any claims to the contrary.

Fair enough to have reservations, but I don’t think you can completely disregard everything said with any confidence?

It must be very difficult to grow up believing you’re one sex and then finding out you’re another at the level of chromosomes and hormones. CS was 18 when IAAF investigations took place and had previously never been to a gynaecologist (even though issues regarding development were probably apparent a few years earlier).

R.e. Semenya I take back comments about being outwardly female, as aside from anything else has fathered a son! But I appreciate likely genuine DSD idk further.

Back to Khelif I appreciate evidence so far may have a DSD:

• female passport - too easily faked
• not allowed to compete after gender test
• "leaks" of tests suggesting DSDs - too much clickbait/potential for fake news around this
• claims brought up female from i.e. parents, photos unverified

Versus bits of evidence of being treated as male / wearing male protection etc and visual evidence of male without any obvious biological female characteristics as well as concerns from female opponents. No independent birth record as allocated female at birth.

Now abolished sex tests were introduced because of suspected fraud of entering men as women in the 1960s Olympics. Boxing is a prime candidate because men have greater upper body strength than women (and baggy shorts!).

All we know is that someone looking like a man has been boxing women. To the extent of leaving professional female boxers in tears, and many other viewers distressed. Such violence has been legitimised. It's part of a societal pattern where male violence against women is often excused or ignored as per the thread of on mental health inpatients. Objecting women are gaslighted and here threatened with court cases.

Reasons for the apparent masculinity may be:

1. Entirely fraud for money / material gain / first gold for Algeria for a long time etc.
2. Fraud by having a XY DSD which was clear from birth or clearly "became male ahem" during puberty, or secret trans MtF, perhaps exploited by a national coach or talent spotter
3. Fraud/exploitation on behalf of some involved who knew i.e. parents and/or coach/ talent spotter/doctors but did not tell Khelif they were biologically male and led them to believe otherwise
4. Genuinely believed female with a DSD and continues to believe to be female
5. Genuinely is a woman without a DSD

I did start this thread as I was wondering if there was actual evidence of a DSD. I think my conclusion is no there isn't, and I don't know which of the above is the case. I wish the media would stop effectively excusing this as a DSD.

Semenya went through secondary school as a boy. We know this from photos he chose to include in his autobiography.

https://www.itv.com/news/2025-06-05/naming-imane-khelif-has-caused-irreparable-psychological-damage

The President of the Algerian Boxing Federation has put out a statement declaring that leaked private medical information has caused Khelif irreparable psychological damage.

He added that the statement had internationally harmed “our national sports movement” and that Khelif was not given “the right to defend herself” nor did World Boxing “hear from the doctors specialising in endocrinology who follow her.”

Thus inadvertantly confirming the leaked information and revealing more private medical information by revealing that Khelif has multiple endocrinology specialists.

Women with normal chromosones don't need usually need endocrinologists. Neither do men with normal chromosones.

So I think we can probably safely say that yes, theres a chromosone issue going on.

Semenya would have had his manager / adviser with him at that interview who would have been ensuring Semenya said all the right things. After all, if he does disclose to the world that yes, he is male with a DSD, then that’s his whole career up in smoke. He, as with Khelif, have too much to loose to ever acknowledge that they’ve been conning everyone.

In the first link above Semenya is quoted as saying
“I wasn’t the only girl who was “boyish” in my village or the surrounding villages. Girls who preferred to wear trousers or play with boys weren’t considered abominations. It really was not a big fucking deal. These girls would grow out of it and get married and have kids with a guy or not. That’s life.”

But everyone already knows Semenya’s medical details don’t they?
They’re not disputed.

But everyone already knows Semenya’s medical details don’t they? They’re not disputed.

Most people don't know, because it's barely ever been reported accurately. Most people seem to think that Semenya is maybe a "woman with high testosterone", if they're aware there's any issue at all, as that's been the most common press formulation for decades.

Media's managed to suppress the information reasonably well, by pretending documents don't exist.

As long as Semenya keeps his mouth shut, that state can continue quite happily.

If Semenya were to actually say "actually, I'm a bloke and always have been", then that would be treated as "news" and the studied ignorance would be much harder to maintain.

(Much like Khelif's test results, which were "news" last week, despite many of us having been aware of those tests 9 months ago - the only thing new was a picture of the document, whereas we'd already had multiple independent sources confirm its contents).

There's 'being boyish and wearing trousers', and there's going topless on a school trip at age 15 and publishing that pic in a book. I doubt any of the girls in the village did the latter.

It almost certainly is a DSD in IK’s case OP.

Are there any cases of male boxers or athletes in general competing in women’s competitions historically?
Not including the recent inclusion of trans athletes here! Aside from them most cases must involve DSDs?

Anyone who knows anything about athletics then @NecessaryScene. Maybe not the general public.

Caster Semenya was directly quoted in an interview with the BBC as saying, "Being born without a uterus or with internal testicles. Those don't make me less of a woman."

Furthermore, it has been confirmed that Semenya's specific DSD is 46 XY 5-ARD (5-alpha-reductase deficiency), which occurs only in males.

Yes, not disputing that. CS has a male DSD but identifies as a ‘different sort of woman’.

I don’t think you can compare with trans idelogy here. This is someone who believed they were a girl at least until puberty, then there was some confusion probably. Testing wasn’t done until the age of 18 approx.

I certainly don’t think CS or IK should be competing in women’s sports as they have an unfair advantage and in IK’s case it’s not safe either. But they can identify how they please imho.

Yes, XY 5 ARD and it's a condition that, like all DSDs, affects only one sex as a variation in that particular sexual development pathway. In his case, males.

It's not as rare in some parts of the world where there are higher levels of cosanguinity.

It does not change his male athletic advantage and even if it did, he would still be a man so that isthe category he should compete in. If his male body isn't built to defeat other male bodies, then
too bad, join everyone else who isn't going to be
an elite athlete. I wish I had the physique of an
Olympian too.