Does Imane Khelif even have a DSD?

[BeLemonNow]

Giving the widespread reporting of a previous test showing Imane Khelif is biologically male / XY is there actually any evidence as to whether or not they even have a Disorder of Sexual Development (DSD). Or is this straightforward fraud? I know there was speculation before...

By DSD, going by NHS information, in this case I mean XY chromosomes with an abnormality causing a baby's genitals to look female (but not a DSD where there's XY and some sort of penis even if smaller than normal). To be clear, I am aware that these differences are usually apparent by puberty. It looks likely Imane went through male puberty.

Apologies if this has been covered in a different thread, but I cannot see it anywhere. I am aware that the only IOC criteria to compete at the Olympics was a female passport - ridiculous really - but that Imane has been claiming to be living as a woman since birth.

If you are astonished that a man is considered and referred to as a man, I'm not sure how much we can help you.

He's an adult human male. The word for that is man. It's not a slur or an insult or disrespectful. It's his misfortune that he was mistaken for a girl as a child, although he absolutely knew he was a man by the time he started punching women in the ring. That is beyond disrespectful.

He can wear dresses and makeup if he wants. But he's a man. He's not a woman, a teapot, a lampshade or a Nissan Micra. He's a man. And if people are going to ask why he can't compete in sports with women, that's the clear and honest language to explain it. No more lying Newspeak.

We don’t subscribe to your gender religion.

YAWN

@Obeseandashamed

Come back with your " respect " after a bloke punches you in the face for fun or fame.

We will be kind and allow you to be hit with a man who has put on boxing gloves but is not professionally trained nor boxing with other men every day.

Because he isn’t “another female”. He’s a male. A man.

Calling him “she” and “her” implies I believe he’s a woman. He isn’t.

As an atheist I don’t pretend to believe in god.

If someone has anorexia I don’t pretend that they’re fat no matter how much they believe it.

If someone has delusions that they have an imaginary friend I don’t play along.

This man knew he was a man when he got in the ring and beat up a woman. He’s not just a man; he’s a very BAD man. He deserves no respect whatsoever.

HTH.

And what about the women he beat? Did they not deserve respect? The language we use is important as it is what we base our laws and society on. IK is male, regardless as to how he identifies. Just like all the other athletes with DSDs who claim to be female and have run roughshod over the rights of women athletes - the right to fair competition.
If we continue to pretend that males with DSDs are actually females, we tie ourselves in knots and have no argument.

It's not even only about respect for them, it's about safety. A man punching women in a boxing ring, just fucking no.

It starts with pronouns, @Obeseandashamed , and ends with males exposing their penis and testicles in womens change rooms and toilets, and with women relegated to 'menstruators', 'cervix havers' and 'birthing person', and females not having any female spaces to ourselves. That is what dick-pandering to narcissistic, misogynistic mentally unwell men leads to. It's the GATEWAY to Access All Areas for males. None of it gives any benefit to females.

“We live in an era that supports the right to be recognised as the gender you choose.”

I think you are missing something vital. We live in an era where people have the right to not comply to demands to act as if we believe in another person’s belief about themselves when this belief conflicts with material reality.

It has also become clear that this male athlete has not been ‘living as a woman’. There was ring side videos beamed around the world of his coach or manager patting him on the chest during the Olympics. No coach or manager would do that to a female athlete. That would be a scandal. Not one media source said anything about it.

There has been other indications that throw doubt on him ‘living as if he was female’ too such as him playing football with the teenaged boys when he was scouted as a teenager.

Why should we feel compelled to use language that is for female people to describe this male person? I think it makes it even clearer when you consider that this male athlete deliberately choose to compete where he could have caused life threatening harm to female athletes for his own fame and glory. He knew he was male without any doubt when the IBC excluded him from the female competition. Medical specialists explained to him why after they got the results from their first test. He then had this confirmed by the specialist in Paris. The Algerian specialist was quoted as saying that he was helping Khelif to ‘suppress’ testosterone to fit with the IOC’s very unwise rules.

No female athlete has to suppress natural testosterone levels to compete in the female category at the Olympics.

Yet, Khelif made these choices with the full knowledge that he was male and that the OIC rules were a loophole. He chose to enter the ring and put female athletes at highly dangerous risk.

Why should anyone else give this male athlete the respect that you choose to extend? That choice is yours, but the flip side of your claim that people can live as the gender they choose is that no one should feel coerced into acting as if they believe that male person is in anyway a female person.

I completely agree that she shouldn’t be competing in female sport unless in a class where her opponents have a similar chromosomal make up / characteristics to her. However, all I’m saying is that it doesn’t require her to be nastily referred to as a man. I see people who were raised as men cross dressing as women and still having facial hair referred to with female pronouns yet somebody who was born and raised female is derogated in this way? I agree with the right to fair competition, the right to female only spaces etc. I can’t help but feel that in IK’s case she was born female, raised female and culturally probably told she was ugly as let’s be honest she looks manly. Sport aside- she wouldn’t be accepted as a male as she was brought up female. She’s clearly not accepted as a female. If she wasn’t being tested due to competing in sport, would this have ever become an issue? Probably not. She would have just been locally known as the unfortunate looking girl from the village.

Do you think Khelif is male or female?

I think she is weirdly both so I guess effectively neither even though raised and registered female.

Oh.

@Obeseandashamed

So the "argument" is his country is too "poor" "stupid" "backward" to understand science?

You think that that person is female

Others dont.
The medical testing says male

He decided to enter a spot where physical upper body strenght matters.

His country has a publicly funded healthcare system. So he could have gone the medical route have his sex correctly recognised.

And yet, you have created the back story yourself. You have made assumptions all by yourself here.

Why on earth do you think that Algeria doesn’t have a medical system in place so that when Khelif didn’t menstruate if by then it was even expected that the child would, that the family didn’t seek medical advice? That is the assumption that you have made. Also an assumption that this conduction is not known about in that the region of Algeria.

You have created a life for Khelif in your mind that doesn’t seem to be likely.

You asked why we didn’t use female language for this male athlete. We told you and you are now trying to emotionally manipulate people on the internet to follow your lead using a sad and emotional story.

Would you be telling us that we should use female language for a male rapist who claimed to be female too ? If not, what is the difference?

He is male. Born with a penis that was smaller than normal. Look into 5 ARD.

I'd have had sympathy right up until the point he chose to punch women in the head for many thousands of pounds.

He was not 'born' as a female, he was born as a male. And I doubt very much he was raised as a female, as he was knocking around with the boys and playing football in the neighbourhood with them, something a girl in that country and religion is NOT ALLOWED to do. He doesn't wear a hijab - all the women in his country do. He is touched by men and touches men in a way that no girl or woman in his religion and country would do. He was riding on the shoulders of his coaches. No Muslim girl or woman in that country would be permitted to do that. They don't just have woman basically dry-humping mens necks with their legs straddling each side of men's head.

He was born a male, and he was socialised as a male, hung around males, and acted like a male.

He is male. He has internal testicles and a prostate. And he has a cock. A micropenis, but he is still fully intact male in every way. And in this day and age, feminists are turning against trans/pronouns insanity and renewed by the Supreme Court ruling. Trans and pronouns are 'out' - you obviously didn't get the memo.

He. And it's impossible to be 'both'. There is no such thing. You're either male, or female. That's it. No 'combination'. He has male DNA and chromosomes. He has a penis. He has testicles. He has a prostate. He has no female sex organs whatsoever. And he, hijab-less, was raised as a male and socialised as a male. There is not one thing female about him.

@Obeseandashamed please see the photo below when it loads. This is not how any Muslim girl would be permitted to behave.

This is how a man behaves and how a Muslim man is permitted to behave. Algeria knows what they are doing and are happy to behave that way.

I think DSDs should be considered differently to trans.

I’m not talking about IK in particular, but in general if someone was raised as a girl but years later found out they had XY chromosomes then I think they should be free to ask to be referred to as either she or he.

I don’t think anyone who’s had a male puberty should be competing in women’s sports to be clear, and most especially not a contact sport like boxing, where it is dangerous for women as well as unfair.

I can see the point there, and in principle I would agree with it. But if a male with DSD is going to claim to be a woman, and they live in a Muslim country with strict rules for women and one with strong Male Privilege, then they damn well better actually behave like a woman all the time then! And not retain male behaviour and privilege. Wear the hijab. Don't ride on men's shoulders. Don't play football as a girl with the neighbourhood boys if you are a Muslimah. Otherwise it's just taking the piss. You can't pick and choose which parts of being a female you want, and which you don't. You can't choose to keep Male Privilege and not accept your female oppression. Actual females can't opt out of our oppression and 'pick and choose'.

Obeseandashamed · Today 07:45

I've been beaten to the point, but he wasn't raised as a girl in any way, shape, or form. Whilst his sisters and female cousins stayed indoors with their mothers, aunts and grandmothers, he was outside, playing football.

With all the other boys. It's not cruel to call the cheating bollix a man, because that's precisely what he is.

Catholicism vs Protestantism. Doesn’t matter. Calling men “she” is just a variation of the same religion.

Yes, I wasn’t talking about IK in particular @ThatBlackCat .

In general terms DSDs can be complicated and it must be very difficult to be raised as one sex to then find out you’re another. Some people don’t make allowances for that and lump them all in with trans, which is unfair imho. The post above mine is an example of what I mean.

Yes it must be difficult. But not so difficult that some men spy an opportunity to exploit it to their own personal advancement and to the detriment of women. So anyone who is confirmed to be a man should be treated as such, in name and in practice. No fear or favour, no stratification of who “deserves” female pronouns and who doesn’t, because that’s a subjective matter. Keep it objective, treat them all the same, then there’s never any doubt. Huge swathes of the population still think Khelif and Semenya are women due to the simple fact everything written about them uses “she” and “her”. It’s deceptive.