Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

[loveyouradvice]

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

If only...
But I suspect some people will make a big noise about it.
The Sturgeons of this world will only go down when they've fought to the death...

I hope you are right, but look at Brexit, that didn't settle things, there are lots of noisy people in prominent places that will perpetuate this. I think all this does is give the until now fairly silent majority more cover to 'fight' back. I'm sure the balance of the argument will change, but I don't think it's anywhere near over.

I suspect so. It’s already on its way out, public opinion has very much turned, the reality of TRA activity is out there plus what happened at GIDS, men in women’s prisons/sports etc. I’ve seen mention of the next generation coming through not agreeing with gender ideology. Nothing makes something uncool faster than it being out of date.

On top of all that, gender critical views are more accepted, both societally and legally, and I imagine the medical scandal of PBs and cross sex hormones will be a chicken that comes home to roost relatively soon. And there will only need to be a few big, high-profile court cases on single sex spaces for companies and organisations to realise the jig is up.

I'm sure there will be pockets of ideology spluttering on, still bleating “be kind!” like a broken toy, but this will come to be seen as a temporary madness. Like PIE.

I don't think it will just fizzle out without a bit more of a fight. There will be some kind of high profile attempt to change the law from the "sex means sex and is different from gender" position that the SC confirmed is currently the law of the land, to something that is more TWAW. I hope that process will result in more people thinking about it properly and realising the logical impossibility of actually changing the law to say that men are in fact women as and when required but of course those men would never be classified as women, it's only that any man can be a woman. I think that the processes of scrutinising any new law and ensuring it actually fucking makes sense will finally demonstrate that the law as it currently stands does in fact have to stay. I don't think this process will be complete for at least 10 years.

No. These men are never going to stop trying to change the laws to allow them access to spaces where females are vulnerable. We will have to be vigilant

People who don’t agree with the ruling aren’t going to suddenly all agree with those of you who do. So no, I don’t think it will die down.

I would love it to be over. Legally, we can see the end in sight for the UK - the Supreme Court has judged the issue, and there's no appetite in Parliament to change the Equality Act. JK Rowling's defence fund will make employers and public services think twice about dragging out court cases in the hopes they will go away, whilst the NHS is heading for its own nadir with the nurses.

The problem is the children who have been treated with hormones and surgery either as underage or as young adults. Their parents will never accept anything less than total capitulation to the TWAW because to admit otherwise would expose them to the truth that they have risked their child's health and fertility for no good reason.

Many of these parents are in positions of power - academia, politics, arts and culture. It's going to take time, medical research and a lot of pushback to stop that juggernaut. America is still captured and most of Europe has self-ID. I think it's going to take another decade, at least and a lot of collateral damage.

I used to hope that in ten years time, the UK would have finally gotten over transphobia once and for all.

I'm now on the verge of giving up hope that in ten years' time, the UK will be a country that even permits trans people to exist publicly or allows for them to access treatment of any kind.

With the ascendant influence of the US evangelist far right and the interference of a cabal of rich bigots willing to throw their fortunes at intimidating and bullying anyone who dares try and meaningfully improve the lives of trans people, I think there are extremely dark times ahead.

I've walked this road for a long time and have seen us gain legal recognition, gain protection from discrimination and gain a serious measure of cultural acceptance. There was a time when this country finally, finally stopped trying to make life unliveable for trans people - started actually protecting us from discrimination and hate speech, and even celebrated our lives occasionally.

People will still remember that; will still wonder what happened to their trans friends and colleagues - why they left the country or simply dropped off the radar entirely. You will have to wait for living generations to die before you can erase those memories - and people are better informed, nowadays. They won't forget the chilling parallels to the 1930's.

Even previously trans-hostile media are seeing where things have gone in a shockingly brief period of time and are starting to get nervous - all the initial pretences and 'I'd march with you" platitudes long forgotten; the masks dropping one by one and the steady creep of far-right rhetoric bleeding through. It's clear that this has never been about safeguarding or women's rights - it's always been about exercising power over marginalised minorities, and contrarian spite at being asked to treat others like human beings.

I'm not given to prayer, but I hope that this country will find its humanity again in the years to come - because I am more afraid than I have ever been in my entire life. The disturbing realisation that this is the entire point - that this was always meant to destroy the lives of any trans person who had found a way to largely escape first-hand transphobia in daily life - is a devastating one. I've always tried to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, but there really is no corner of justification remaining for the calls that are going out now not just to celebrate, but to accelerate...

Give over, @ButterflyHatched
All that’s changed is that you can’t use women’s spaces anymore.
Get over it and stop your nonsense.

Chat GPT?

By gum you said a mouthful.

Lovely purple prose there. But, like all purple prose, it's empty rhetoric. Look between the lines and there's nothing to see. No profound truths revealed. (But quite a lot of interesting lies.)
It's all just ... what's that wonderful phrase often used on here... ? Oh yes - word salad!
I think that means when you have nothing to say but you make that nothing up into words anyway.

I'll let someone else pick it apart - if indeed anyone thinks it's worth their while.

Thanks for your contribution

Unless this carries over to other countries I think we're going to have a continuing slog to hold the line because there will be a lot of pressure from the international progressive movement and media.

But if we can develop a strong culture of protecting trans people (and lets not forget, we don't have the sorts of issues with violence against trans people that some other countries do), meeting their healthcare needs (esp. mental health) and providing them with space that suits the ones who aren't just fetishistic while also standing strong on women's rights and recognising sex as the defining characteristic that impacts outcomes for women. If we can do that I think we'll see the progressive movement turning towards us in about 15 years as the horrors of allowing the TRA movement to have their way becomes too obvious to sweep under the carpet any more.

By healthcare needs, do you mean actual healthcare or conversion therapy? I hear the latter is quite a lucrative field when pursued freelance, and a fertile recruitment ground for the next generation of legal figureheads to drive attacks on trans healthcare.

Well quite a few young people identify as trans now (60% women/girls 40% men/boys in the ‘young person’ age range) so I don’t imagine it will go away….

I think in places like the UK it will disappear eventually. It may take a long time for it to be rooted out of institutions however. I am thinking that it will take about as long going our as going in, so 10, 15, even 20 years. But it will be less and less powerful over that time.

I am not sure about places like North America, the legal changes are going to make it a trickier problem. However, they aren't going to be able to run away from the medical scandals, so that may change things significantly.

Oh yes I believe it's on its way out. I know I'm one person obviously but I feel able to speak up openly at work (social work) about it now with forstater, Supreme Court and umpteen other legal precedents behind me now. Ten years ago I was fearing for my job if anyone found out I joined a secret Facebook group. I now don't care if people disagree with me - bring it on! I can defend my position. This was unthinkable ten or even 5 years ago. Public opinion has changed, the general public are far more aware and genderism is and always has been a fringe belief. It can never win against public opinion when everyone knows what's being done/attempted.

Honestly the best thing that could happen for trans rights and acceptance is to take an approach that is in line with how other civil rights movements have gone about things. Be proud to be trans, lobby for trans spaces and services, have open good faith discussions and be willing to engage in the policy debates, and for the professionals to follow the processes and rigour expected in all other areas of medicine, psychology and psychiatry. Trying to conflate sex with gender in law and policy has been a strategic misstep, as we can see from falling acceptance of the activists' proposed solutions as public awareness increases, where normally the opposite occurs. Gender ID/reassignment and sex are two separate characteristics each with specific rights required (eg pregnancy protections or abortion rights are required because of biological sex including transmen and female people who ID as non-binary) - although as Bostock showed, trans rights can be protected under 'sex' if viewed as a protection of gender non-conformity. If activists took the more standard approach of building rights around their own distinct protected characteristic, trans people would probably be fully embraced within society and vast swathes of the population would be 100% on board with advocating for trans rights and inclusion.

ButterflyHatched

By healthcare needs, do you mean actual healthcare or conversion therapy? I hear the latter is quite a lucrative field when pursued freelance...

I'm sure you don't hear that at all.

Oh give the melodrama a rest. Unliveable?

Do you think we don’t know the difference between reasonable and unreasonable demands.Even if GRCs were annulled you would still be here, still existing as a person entitled to live and work with dignity and without discrimination.

Being excluded from women’s toilets is not discrimination- you had years going to the men’s anyway.

We know the reality is that it is no longer being able to force outward compliance from women is what makes your life your life “unlivable”. But the unlivable is in quotes, and every else recognizes that your demands to colonize women’s spaces are off the wall.

I think that there a still a lot of deluded people, who think that men can become women (or vice versa) yet can't actually define what they're becoming or why, other than looking or sounding like characatures of their idea of a woman (or man). Men don't belong in spaces designed for biological women, ever.

@ButterflyHatched

You do realise you sound like an angry tween, right?

"People will still remember that; will still wonder what happened to their trans friends and colleagues - why they left the country or simply dropped off the radar entirely. "

"I'm gonna run away and disappear, and everyone will be sorry they were mean to me!"

We both know you guys won't be going anywhere. You'll remain just where you are. The only thing that will change is the toilets you have to use - and you brought that on yourselves.

I hope you are right but I suspect this will be a long running battle. So many people (in power) have bought into the ideaology, look at SNP upper echelons intervening to make sure stonewall continues to get funding.

I think we will have to be vigilant as given an inch trans rights activists tend to take the proverbial mile. I also think the U.K. is (terf island) an outlier as various countries have introduced self ID so we will be having pushback externally too.

I suppose that is what Butterfly is.
If the story that BH tells is correct he took puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and had surgery (not entirely sure about the surgery, but deffo PBs), so I'd assume Butterfly never matured cognitively or emotionally beyond a pre-teenager, and it shows.

I damn sure hope that's not the case! The horror of transing kids is bad enough as it is without it turning out that taking PBs also has emotional regulation consequences!