Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

[loveyouradvice]

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

Nobody should be forced to date anyone? Trying to require anyone to date anybody is creepy and predatory.

Some lesbians date trans women, some don't, that's just called consent.

That's not the relevant question. It's asking about "trans people" as a whole - so the group that people are being asked to rate their "general view of" will include all the transmen who look just like butch lesbians, and will include the many tranwomen who are respectful of women's rights. And "how positively or negatively do you view" doesn't say anything about sexual attraction anyway. Where's the survey on the views of lesbians (people with female bodies who are exclusively attracted to other people with female bodies) being asked about their opinions about specifically male people who are seeking wanting to be considered as equally lesbian?

You are trying to pretend these women don't exist, wanting them to stop existing. This will not happen. Homosexual people exist, and are not attracted to an idea in the head of someone of the opposite sex. Get over it.

I mostly ignore these threads as they always seem to end up so mean and I doubt I will change any of your minds - but I’m going to just chime in to stop it being a complete echo chamber. As a completely standard biological woman with no personal queer identity of any sort - I am so tired of other women equating “biological women only” bathrooms with protecting women’s rights - it (a) distracts from the very many real issues women still face in this world and (b) seems to be an excuse to have a go at trans people in an unnecessarily hateful way. I agree there are complexities to managing gender identities in things like children transitioning (I’m personally against children biologically transitioning as I think the potential downsides are too high), prisons, etc but when you exercise this much hate on a subject like protecting public bathrooms you are very clearly not motivated by anything other than hate. I’ve nipped into the men’s on occasion when the queue for the ladies was long and no one has ever expressed 1 percent of the loathing most the people on this and other threads seem to feel for a transperson who feels more comfortable using the women’s loos doing the same.

Most of us do know transpeople. We also know that humans can't change sex, and that'well my trans friend is lovely' is not a basis for public policy.

So what's your view of this situation where lesbians who want to organise single-sex events are being prevented from doing so? Would you support their campaign?

Women who are attracted to both male and female bodies are bisexual. Not lesbians.

Until they (most of them) grow out of it and those statistics change...

This male rights movement will disappear. But others will turn up in its place. And, I daresay, some form of gender ideology will grow up again in the future. Hopefully lessons will have been learned and rational people won't let debate be stifled and society's institutions won't be carelessly embedding it in their fabric without a second thought.

You should have been told this truth at the beginning, so you were clear what you could reasonably expect from society at large and you could make sensible choices about your future.

But you were lied to and the attempts to shut women up have failed.

Great post Taytoface

I was medically diagnosed by an NHS clinician, I was asked to recount my childhood and talk about how dysphoria affects me. It was based around how this affects my physical sex characteristics. Specifically I was diagnosed under ICD-11.

My mum has supported me, but I live away from her now. I have been receiving therapy alongside my transition.

I think to be a woman is to either be born female, or to be diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria later in life.

I have called out those members of my community, and distanced myself from them. I don't attend trans protests as far too often there is horrible placards and violent statements. I don't like violence and I don't want to be associated with that.

Unrelated but I am also a transmedicalist.

I’m assuming it means, as the Cass report recommended, holistic care with actual need being assessed very much on an individual basis.

In some, possibly minimal, cases, surgery and cross-sex hormones may be the right course. There needs to be a full benefits vs risks assessment if so, and for this to be a last rather than a first resort. Have you read in any great detail the mess that can result from genital surgery? If not then I’d recommend a strong stomach. Also, treatment with strong hormones for precocious puberty is necessary given the medical problems this can cause as the child reaches adolescence - it is stopped as soon as reasonably possible and is never intended to be taken on a lifelong, continual basis. I’ve personally taken Buserelin as part of IVF protocol: the stuff is potent and brutal. It made me crazy and I couldn’t wait to come off it. The idea of handing this stuff out like smarties, simply on demand, is not realistic or in the vast majority of people’s best interests.

To use this kind of serious, irreversible medical intervention as a first resort is the way madness lies. Even the medical profession now seem agreed on that much and TRAs themselves have welcomed the alternatives proposed by Cass to the Tavistock.

Keep looking over the ridge of that distant hill. A
large claim for medical negligence - possibly involving multiple claimants - is going to be cresting it in the not too distant future.

Councils refuse stuff all the time that I don't like (mainly housing). Vote them out at the next local election if you don't like what they're doing.

Ah so your view is that it's only a small number of people so they don't matter.

Usually in this country vulnerable minority groups get their needs protected without having to first reach a critical mass of 50% of the voting population.

Nice to see your homophobia revealed.

In a couple of decades the Dentons approach to advancing trans rights (no debate) will be a case study in how not to do lobbying. They won so many battles via Stonewall in public and private institutions and the almost entire capture of the public sector in Scotland - the disgrace of the Scottish Prison Service for eg.
But ultimately they lost the war. The highest court in the land decided it. Transwomen are men. Transmen are women.
If the approach had been persuasion and open good faith debate who knows what the outcome might have been?

Honestly, I'm not sure. Before all the noise about trans people in women's prisons, sports etc. I barely thought about the issue. But if pressed, I'd have probably said I was fine with them being treated as full women if that's how they identified.

Now, after campaigning on both sides, I'm really concerned about children being damaged (both physically and psychologically) by the belief that anyone can change sex at will. I'm fully against any trans criminal convicted of a violent or sexual crime (or even hint at violence in their history) being placed in a female prison (honestly not sure what I think about non violent crimes but I definitely don't think placing them in women's prisons should be a given), I dont think trans women have any place competing against women in sport, accessing many women's groups for many different reasons, and whilst I personally prefer gender neutral toilets/changing rooms because that's what works best for my family, I believe women who are uncomfortable shouldn't be forced to share these spaces with anyone with a penis.

I don't think I'm unusual in changing my opinion now I've heard more discussion on the topic. I don't think people who have always been passionate about trans women will have changed their minds though.

@AYoungTransWoman liking trans people or not is not the issue. It’s possible to like trans people yet still not think they have changed sex nor think gender ideology is true or real in any way.

If you have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria medically, that is a mental health condition — but it does not actually mean you are a woman, nor that it is possible to legislate for everyone else to see you that way.

Women don’t want to be told that they have to pretend something is true that isn’t true. That’s the whole basis of the current trans movement — attempting to force everyone to believe (or act as if they believe) that reality is not reality. You can’t argue that making everyone pretend something is true when it isn’t is “love and acceptance”. It’s just forcing everyone else to engage in mass pretending, and then blaming women when the truth inevitably pops into view every so often.

I was curious about the sample size for that poll, so I looked up the raw data. Funnily enough, the raw data categories don't match those published in the poll. AFAIK You Gov is a reliable source, so it got me thinking. I looked up their methodology for data collection. Guess what? They don't collect data on sex; only gender. I don't know if you've read the Sullivan Review, but we have a big problem with data collection due to the conflation of sex and gender. Without knowing the sex of the poll respondents, the poll becomes a bit redundant.

Accepting your body is fine just as it is, for example?

let's face it no one's opinion here is going to change from an argument ion Mumsnet.

mine did. I went from #bekind to realising that trans ideology is largely a men’s sexual rights movement, with the chemical castration of vulnerable children as collateral damage.

I mean quite literally (the real meaning of the word literal) I am not!

• yes - I am male
• no - I am not aggressive (there is a difference between assertive and aggressive)
• no I am not angry - more sad - sad that you have been lied to, sad that your needs haven’t been met, sad that you have gone down a path looking for resolution which would never give it you, sad that those around you didn’t make the tough decisions to support your needs but pandered to a lie which others foistered on society
• no - you are not a woman - as confirmed in the recent legal judgement, as is clear from biology, as is clear from the fact that surgery and hormones and pronouns can’t give you a womb / won’t give you periods / won’t allow you to become pregnant, won’t change your gametes - won’t stop you from being a man…

you also make a lot of inaccurate assumptions about what and who others know…

I believe, @Aimtodobetter, you are the first person on the thread to mention 'bathrooms'. Would you care to engage with any of the actual issues?

@AYoungTransWoman

Thank you for answering my questions.

'I think to be a woman is to either be born female, or to be diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria later in life'.

I'm going to gently push back on that second half of your sentence. Being diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria doesn't automatically make you a woman. Gender incongruence does not change biological sex.

Gender dysphoria is a feeling of distress experienced when a person's gender identity (their internal sense of being male or female) doesn't align with the sex they were assigned at birth. It doesn't automatically mean they are actually the other sex.

Obviously treatment should be provided to alleviate distress, no one should have to suffer in silence.

But a condition like ICD-11 is based on the individual's personal feelings, not biological reality. The SC ruling clarified the basis of law in which males and females would be categorised. It doesn't reflect feelings because these are highly personal and fluid.

Also, as you have acknowledged some in the trans community have less than positive motivations. We need clear legal frameworks to ensure protection for all.

See with things like this, I and all the lesbians I know just roll our eyes at the situation.

We can't imagine being so obsessively anti trans as to go out of our way to leave no stone unturned in an attempt to exclude them. And it would just gives us the instant 'ick' towards a group with agendas like that - we wouldn't want to be in their company, or part of their groups as their values are clearly so antithetical to our own. They wouldn't be women we would want to build friendships with or explore relationships with.

There are no ‘bad people’ with gender critical views who even touch the sides of the worst TRA’s. Who is the equivalent of any of the notorious criminals who are also Trans? What is equivalent to the piss protests?

No one is calling for your eradication. That’s just not true- you’re making it up.

Also standing up for women’s rights is not anti trans.

Just for clarity and understanding? Are you a male transitioned lesbian, or a birth sex female lesbian?

For your clarity, I am birth sex female lesbian.

Thank you.
That makes me intrigued then that you feel that lesbian spaces should accept men - does it not make sense that as at the heart of being a lesbian is attraction one woman to another woman, there will be times when lesbians would want a woman only space?
or have I misunderstood you?