Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

[loveyouradvice]

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

Infertility will be their erasure.

Yeah, it'll fizzle. And then maybe we can actually start supporting autistic girls as they should be, and sad middle aged men can well, who knows? Where does a crisis of masculinity go once it can't pivot into identifying into women's rights?

I agree.

There are a surprising number of people who cling to the soundbites they've regurgitated from reddit who don't understand them enough to articulate what it is they're actually trying to claim, and I think there's a bit of Dunning-Kruger, unsinkable rubber duck and social conditioning there as they won't ever realise how wrong they are (eg people insisting that GC feminism is something it isn't). I think they'll believe anything is transphobic til the bitter end.

On the other hand, there are a surprising number of people who didn't realise what was happening and are appalled the more airtime is given to protests and violence and the justifications ansld dishonesty from "let them speak".

The thing I'm most depressed about is how this will feed directly into the right-wing. We have long needed a decent lefty party who prioritises the future of society and the planet and they're constantly distracted by all this.

Hopefully the narrative will change to one of treating the underlying psychological issues with kindness rather than encouraging people to take life changing hormones and self mutilation.

Those that have worked with trans patients through psychotherapy over decades are now being listened to. They have long advocated that the actual number of people suffering with gender dysphoria is significantly smaller than thought and that transitioning is not the right way to treat patients as it does not improve mental health long term. They liken it to encouraging an anorexic patient to go on a diet.

Watching the TRA threats of violence against women and bizarre protests, its very clear that mental health support is needed not surgery.

Here’s the thing though. Being a teenage girl absolutely sucks. It is appalling. Your body changes in ways that seem horrific (periods - what is this - a fucking horror film - there is actual blood coming out of me?!?!) and stop you doing the things that you liked doing (breasts - but I’m a competitive runner - what the hell?!?!) and suddenly adult men start yelling at you out of vans even though you are only 13.

Who wouldn’t be distressed? It is distressing. I was distressed. Really distressed.

And if you hadn’t given me a way out at 13 - had told me that I didn’t have to be “a woman” I’d have jumped at it.

But I was a teenager in the 90s so there was no way out. I just had to get on with it. So I did. And by my 15th birthday the strangest thing happened. I suddenly got comfortable with my body and was pretty happy with it. (Ok - full disclosure - this sudden self love happened to coincide with meeting a rather dashing young lad from Cheshire whilst on holiday and discovering moonlit walks on the beach with him, writing our names together in the sand and a lot of snogging in the pool.😉)

And now I am a 45 year old woman with two kids that goes cold at the thought that my rather nice life and my rather lovely children could not exist if I had been born 20 years later and been allowed to make adult decisions whilst still a child.

Teenagers who identify as non binary are absolutely choosing that identity, most of them are in distress over completely different matters (autism, being gay, bullying, abuse) if they are distressed at all - many teenagers are delighted to identify as non binary and experience no distress over it at all: and the idea that they feel there is something wrong with their bodies is on the whole a completely outdated idea. It strikes me you have little knowledge of the current cohort of non binary identifying teenagers.

I can see queens carrying on as they always were. AGPs shrinking into the background as wives leave in droves. Teenagers sniggering at the previous generation’s appropriation of the word queer and their ugly fashions. And allies will pretend they were unaware of AGPs, maps, men in women’s sport and that scores of middle aged women were called bigots and fascists. I feel there should’ve been some rousing music over that monologue…

No. Your win is fairly similar to the homophobes win with section 28. It's going to do a lot of damage to our community but we will win in the end.

The politics of hate and division will not win in the end, it never does.

Persecution fetish! That describes what we are seeing perfectly!

Well this is just silly 🤪
and very wrong

A few more topless protests where straggly, flabby men show off their moobs will hasten the demise of trans ideology. They don’t look “most oppressed”, they look like people you’d tell your children to keep clear of.

@AYoungTransWoman Have you seen the violent threats and slurs all over the internet from men against women and “terfs”? The “protests” with the pissing and shouting threats, and this week standing around topless shouting into megaphones and threatening women? That’s the politics of hate and division. How do you explain or excuse the sheer misogyny in your “movement”?

How would we decide which side is sowing more hate and division, because from over here, those rape and death threats on JKR; the attacks of the LGB Association; using police forces as a “Stasi, Cheka, secret police”; the piss protests; the gallows placards and all the rest- well it looks like you might be part of Team Hate. Or do you see it differently?

I think - hope - the OP is right.

We know that the people who have pushed this ideology won't give up easily. They have successfully managed to capture a number of prominent institutions so that people at the top of the NHS, universities, police etc are fully on board with this ideology and will want to carry on promoting it despite the Supreme Court ruling. But I think there are good reasons to think we might win:

1. JK Rowling's fund to support women challenging any organisation defying the Supreme Court ruling. This should make a massive difference.
2. Insurers forcing some corporates to accept, however reluctantly, that they have to abide by the ruling.
3. The weight of public opinion, which is very much in support of the Supreme Court ruling. This is hugely helped, I think, by "Operation let them speak": every time these idiots hold one of their topless demonstrations, or go on Woman's Hour to spout nonsense, it peaks more people.
4. Litigation from de-transitioners. Obviously we don't know yet how this is going to pan out, but if one de-transitioner wins a case against the NHS, then the whole pack of cards comes tumbling down.
5. The Cass Review. Once young people stop taking puberty blockers, then we'll see far fewer young people transitioning. Which brings me to the final point:
6. The passing nature of teenage fads. This is anecdotal, but I think we're already seeing evidence that 12 and 13 year olds are rejecting gender ideology and see it as an absurd craze adopted by the generation immediately above.

So you are saying that:

• you will win
• you won’t win

intriguing?! After all the evidence clearly shows that the only politics of hate and division has clearly come from one side the TRAs

more confused think-gobbledygook

You're entire movement is based on hate and fear. That is literally all that anti-trans politics are.

We are the side of love, acceptance and tolerance.

It's so deeply embedded all over the place with new converts being confirmed in their views when they join the institutions, that I think it'll take a generation to for genderism to become a fringe view recognised as such. In my view it will need a new cohort of kids who decide that genderism is cringe, something strange that older people do, and for them to reach adulthood and establish themselves in the workplace.

Have you ever thought that it might be time to just get over yourself?

There are bad people on both sides. Anti-Trans people have some people calling us a problem to a sane world, and others calling for our eradication.

That seems pretty hate and division to me.

The speed of travel back to a similar place before the subterfuge took hold will depend on whether the trans umbrella holds up.

My prediction is that the longer the diverse group of people who are labelled ‘trans’ are viewed as one group, the slower it will be.

The best outcome for the most vulnerable people who are currently grouped together with others under the ‘trans umbrella’ would be for different labels to be used and widely understood regarding the different groups. Even then, many currently using the term ‘trans’ will try and claim to belong to the gender dysphoria group, but hopefully, a positive byproduct of the ‘crazy period’ of the ‘trans umbrella’ will be that lessons have been learned.

People with gender dysphoria, a history of sexual abuse, autism, and/or same sex attraction need different types of help/treatment when experiencing distress. So do people with personality disorders, sexual fetishises and pedophilia.

This I think is one of the main reasons things could move more swiftly .... I am speaking openly with so many people now, including friends who were firmly in the TWAW brigade.... So much misinformation out there, so many who have only thought of some of the issues... I think the power of us as ordinary women raising it with more people who then peak quite easily (things are SO clear out there now, including the piss in a bottle brigade) will really help things move forward faster.

I'm with you @FortyElephants

FortyElephants · Today 02:49

Oh yes I believe it's on its way out. I know I'm one person obviously but I feel able to speak up openly at work (social work) about it now with forstater, Supreme Court and umpteen other legal precedents behind me now. Ten years ago I was fearing for my job if anyone found out I joined a secret Facebook group. I now don't care if people disagree with me - bring it on! I can defend my position. This was unthinkable ten or even 5 years ago. Public opinion has changed, the general public are far more aware and genderism is and always has been a fringe belief. It can never win against public opinion when everyone knows what's being done/attempted.

@AYoungTransWoman Take a look at:
terfisaslur.com

and then come back and tell us with a straight face that “we are the side of love, acceptance and tolerance”. Because ordinary women experience the current trans “movement” as the side of boundary pushing, sexual fetishism, colonising, violent threats, heavily porn-influenced views of the world, and above all, asserting dominance over women in a very traditionally male way that we all recognise very well.

It’s very confusing isn’t it. You would think that threats of rape and violence would make women want to welcome transwomen into their spaces. Instead it seems to make them even more determined to keep them out.

I do actually feel really sorry for people like “AYoungTranswoman”. It is quite likely that they are a really nice person who has been told over and over that if they want to be in women’s spaces then they can be. And they made a decision to sacrifice their chances of ever having biological children on that promise. And they just didn’t realise that the women who were being ignored and threatened were not a tiny hateful minority but in fact a large proportion of the population. The threats and the violence had silenced most of them but most people always knew what they knew.

And they also didn’t realise that it doesn’t matter how nice and non threatening they are because in their movement there is always going to be an Isla Bryson who will ruin their chances of trying to convince people that transwomen are women really. Because a picture is worth a thousand words and that picture of Isla Bryson - in “her” pink leggings with alongside Adam Graham with his tattoo looking like the rapist thug that he actually is is a picture that sticks in the mind.

😂😂😂😂😂😂

your username says it all - young (presumably a bit naive?) trans (there is no such thing as being able to transition - not biologically possible - woman - I assume that means you are actually a man (boy?!)

the confusion in the username is sadly a part of the battle that has been fought in repurposing words - only needed because the accurate use of words brings a clarity that hasn’t been desired by those whose purpose is hindered by honesty and openness

you should also probably know that this part of Mumsnet is full of the most amazing women who are considerably brighter than most TRAs who post nonsense on here, so unless you can substantiate your claims you will get nowhere other than to look a bit foolish and as all the evidence is overwhelmingly showing that violence and aggression has come from the TRA camp, your assertion can never be proven.

And just in case you are thinking - “silly old woman responding, what does she know, I am a man so am automatically right” - you should probably know that I am a man who doesn’t like bullies and considers that a very large % of the TRA movement is exactly that - male bullies wanting to dominate / intimidate women - and that is not acceptable.

If you have valid evidence to back up your claims - then list it otherwise don’t come on here making silly claims which are clearly the complete opposite of and reframing of reality.

@potpourree The thing I'm most depressed about is how this will feed directly into the right-wing. We have long needed a decent lefty party who prioritises the future of society and the planet and they're constantly distracted by all this.

I agree (as a centre-rightist myself). It's not much of a stretch to say this is what gave us Trump 2 ("she's for they/them, he's for you"), and perhaps even Brexit too, as part of the left's preoccupation with elite and symbolic politics over economics. The tories have been in dereliction of their duties for a decade plus, we didn't need the left parties to do the same.