Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

[loveyouradvice]

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

Claptrap GPT 😂

I used to think this would burn itself out like any other fad – but now I'm not so sure, having seen how the SC decision has been received not as the final result, but as a new stage in an endless argument, as creating confusion, as "let's wait for guidance", etc.

Now what I see instead is more systemic – a crisis brought about by a culture of weak leadership, where the state has (deliberately) stepped away from acting like a central authority, relinquishing that role to Stonewall and all sorts of other bodies. The result of that is endless politics at a much lower level than it should be. It makes the public the target for campaigning downwards, because that's the level where these things are controlled now.

But the public is terrible at this! It can't set a frame for debate, it can't take a decision, it can't enforce a compromise.

It means that mechanisms for social change have become completely chaotic and needn't reflect where society is actually at at all. Instead you just get struggle in whatever fora are available, in whichever manner activists choose, and there's no way of achieving a settlement.

Unless that broader political culture changes, there's no particular reason why it shouldn't go on like this. That might mean arguments about trans going on for many more years, or tomorrow it might be something else entirely – there's no way to tell, it's just a function of how activism works a weak system. Oh joy.

It wouldn't surprise me at all. Puberty is an important process that both body and brain need to go through to become a fully functioning mature adult, it's not an optional step.

I hope this is on the way out.

I hope you are right, but look at Brexit, that didn't settle things, there are lots of noisy people in prominent places that will perpetuate this.

With Brexit the country was pretty evenly split, and Brexit itself was ill defined.

There is no doubt in most people's minds about biological sex. What's the first question we ask when we hear someone has had a new baby? "Is it a boy or a girl? What's his/her name?" Not "Has it got a gender identity yet? How long do you think it will be before it decides?"

@Sskka I don't see it so much as the next stage of an endless argument, more of the last thrashings of the way this ideology has attempted to take over. Whether it’s vulnerable kids who’ve hung their problems on a trans peg, fetishistic men who’ve used “be kind” as a way of exhibiting their proclivities or the EDI/medical/academic end of things who’ve made money, careers and reputations from pushing this shit, there are a lot of people with a vested interest in trying to keep this going. The angry pushback is just a last roll of the die.

@ButterflyHatched I’m sorry you feel as you do but this isn’t transphobia, it’s people told they can’t trample over the rights of others. You don’t have the right to use women’s spaces and you were sold a lie. Be angry at those who did that, rather than those of us who have reinforced their boundaries. And stop with the “We’re not allowed to exist” hyperbole. No one is saying you can’t exist, you just have to do it to the same rules as everyone else. You are still protected from discrimination on the basis of being trans, and rightly so, you just don’t get the special treatment you demand because you can’t change sex. This isn’t “far right” and your parallels to 1930s Germany is so deeply offensive I don’t know where to start. Pack it the fuck in.

And no apollogies, just moonwalks, hypocrisy and oblivion.

(But I think it will be more thsn a couple of years).

I think most of the soufflé will deflate quickly (the sceptical middle, most of the corporate world with its worried insurers, the new young people for whom this is tiresome old-people stuff). But there will be a bit of the soufflé that will take a few generations to subside (the true believers, some of the institutional stuff that is not directly impacted by EA2010).

One thing that I think will make a difference is if both liberals (in the true sense) and GC feminists speak up about how their ideologies allow space for, even celebrate, non-conformism. For years now the mainstream institutional culture has put about the falsehood that the choice is gender identity ideology or rigid sex roles and conservatism. I think that’s partly why so much of the middle went along.

Has it ever occurred to you that the constant appropriation of real suffering is turning people off at the speed of light? The endless pretense to be on a par with murdered Jews, the not even subtle accusations of literal Nazism and fascism against women who simply say no to you? It’s NOT helping. I’m starting to think there’s an actual persecution fetish emerging which is why you can’t let it go.

I think, in general, the vast majority of people always wanted to be kind, knew that no one changes sex and that very rare cases of real dysphoria must be treated with patience and empathy. What has happened since has been such a vast, dangerous overreach means that no one with any eye to either optics or women’s rights can pretend any more that’s all this is. The huge numbers of fetishists publicly displaying their actual perceptions of ‘woman’, the weird obsessive BBC propaganda, the promotion of kink all over Pride have turned people off. All the teens I know are SO over the narcissistic bollocks of NB special kids and while they have sympathy for their peers, see middle aged men dressing as little emo girls as absolutely revolting.

I was out with a gang of old colleagues for the first time since pre covid on Saturday and the way opinions have changed was eye opening. I knew public opinion had changed but hadn’t realised just how disgusted people are by the moob protests and school capture. There’s a bit of Brexit style pushback - ordinary women wanting themselves and their daughters to have privacy are getting angry now at being framed as bonkers religious Americans or Nazis and starting to look at just WHY these claims are being made.

see middle aged men dressing as little emo girls as absolutely revolting.

Yes, this absolutely. The result of this hysterical overreach to the Supreme Court clarification means that I now have significantly less sympathy and tolerance than I used to have.

I think the pattern we see now will go…
There is now a legal and general societal acceptance of the core biology - birth sex / can’t change etc.

This opens up all sorts of areas to correct - including the misconception held in the very word trans - and this has long been a battle centred on the misuse of language. The acceptance journey is likely to be:

• birth sex is what you are (current)
• birth sex can’t be changed (current)
• therefore there is no ability to transition
• then an acceptance that gender is not equal to sex (societal construct v. biology)
• than questioning around what transgender means if you can’t transition sex - what does it mean to transition gender when gender is fluid and a construct
• then the realisation that in being ‘transgender’ you are not changing gender but instead helping to redefine your own gender / not conforming to society’s stereotypes

At that point the journey will be complete and society will understand that actually there is no such thing as transgender but instead gender non-conforming which should be celebrated.

In parallel there will I think be an increasing understanding of the need to deal with those who really believe that they should be the opposite sex with compassion and an understanding that it is a mental health pathway they need to- not affirmation and butchery.

So, yes I think we are at the start of that journey and I believe it will develop in that way… is that ‘wiping out transgender’? No - it is reframing it back to what it truly is and should always have been understood to be - that society’s stereotypes on gender can be harmful to those who don’t comfortably fit in - and I would hope actually make us a more compassionate and accepting society - while firmly ring fencing women’s spaces etc.

I think that in parallel / as a part of the journey, we are going to still see a lot of pain - from those who will have to take cases to court, and from those who society has wrongly labelled as trans who will need to readjust to a more accurate and healthy understanding of themselves, but that won’t be without pain.

Also in parallel, we will see a realisation of the vast safeguarding and child abuse scandal which has been ‘re-labelled’ for decades and where large sets of organisations and influential people will be complicit.

Can people please not quote BH when replying, it just means that drivel is repeated multiple times across the thread!

OP, I think you’re naive, unfortunately. It’s going to take years to fully unpick. These activists aren’t going to go into the night quietly. Take a look on LinkedIn - people spouting bullshit left, right and centre on a professional networking site that isn’t anon. That’s how confident they are, despite the SC ruling.

I mean, look at the nonsense concept of “preferred pronouns”. Even GC people buy into that rubbish.

If a gay teenager gets counselling and realises he's a gay boy not a straight girl... What do you think the outcome is going to be?
a) he's going to grow up to be a healthy man married to a man or
b) he's going to be resentful he didn't destroy his fertility and sex life at a young age and sue the counsellor?

It’s going to take a long time because one thing people hate, hate doing is saying “I was wrong”. All the people who need to say “I was wrong” but won’t need to age out into their pensions.

Andrew Gold on Heretics commented overnight with Konstantin Kisin that he has had a number of ex MPs on who say they would have loved to have got x, y and x done but the Civil Service didn’t want so didn’t do. I think this is going to be one of those topics where what needs doing (right around the world!) just isn’t going to be.

And the rest of the world doesn’t have Mumsnet. Always be thankful you have Mumsnet.

Trans is on its way out at secondary school age. Hardly any identify as the opposite sex and the kids who identify as non binary or
furries are viewed with bemusement by their peers, not feted as they were even 5 years ago. They're akin to the kids who are into dungeons and dragons, they're not the cool kids. Nothing wrong with that obviously, but trans isn't aspirational these days, so the social contagion lessens. Universities is a different story, but that's coming top down as far as I can make out.

The kids who identify as trans now will be no different to the kids who identified as emo 10 years ago - the vast majority took out their lip piercing and cut their fringe as they matured and joined the adult world.

I agree with you OP. I think there is still a big fight to come with test cases. But there is no longer any will to change the law. There have been too many real world cases now of what it means in practice to say men are women. Serious Politicians who will have to be held accountable to the public on this don’t want that. They all saw Nicola Surgeon, a skilled orator, flounder and fail in the interviews after Isla Bryson.

So I agree. The public are not behind it and neither are politicians. I think it will largely die down in the UK at least.

It will take decades for reasons some PPs lay out.

Agree with a PP that the endless repetition of BH’s screeds increase BH’s dopamine hits and rail to BH’s agenda.

@ButterflyHatched believe it or not, despite agreeing with the SC judgement, I don't relish where we are at.

Like myself and many others on this site predicted, you have been sold a lie by Stonewall and others and you have been left in a really shitty position. They told you that it was possible to convince society at large that TW are no different to women, and should be treated no differently to women. They told you that you have a gendered soul that somehow needs drugs and surgery on the NHS to be revealed. They told you that all this could be ushered in with no evidence and no debate.

They were wrong. Society will never accept something that is so blatantly not true. All you have to do is look at Eddie Izzard. He is not and never will be a woman. He can wear a skirt, put on make up, call himself Suzy, but outside your brainwashed cohort, no one thinks he is a woman. You should have been told this truth at the beginning, so you were clear what you could reasonably expect from society at large and you could make sensible choices about your future.

But you were lied to and the attempts to shut women up have failed.

I really hope that people in the trans movement start asking the right questions about how their needs can be reasonably accommodated in society. You will find that by asking rather than demanding, you might actually have some allies on these pages. But perhaps not, so much damage has been done.

It is time you stopped shaking your fists at women. We defended what is ours and we won. You need to make your own destiny now.

You can’t compare non binary and furries. And people don’t decide to become trans or non binary. It may well be a mental illness, but they genuinely (mostly) do feel they are in the wrong body, and their pain/anguish is real.

I don't think that's what people mean by go away". Just that, hopefully, at some point in the future, people will remember that women have rights and boundaries too, and can say no to men in their spaces. People can carry on identifying however they like.

You really are a drama queen. Live your life and stop using women's spaces. You are still protected against discrimination. You're just a pissed off little child who someone has said no to. You are not a woman.

Yes, I think that’s what the trans activists are afraid of and why they are so determined to shut out other voices (‘transphobia’) and lock these kids onto the drugs. Once they are physically on the pathway it’s even harder to leave. Profits before people.

When government institutions ignore a Supreme Court judgement, I think we have serious problems.

Look at all of the countries where it is possible to change the sex or gender markers on your official identity papers...

This is not going away. Instead I fear that many of the single sex protections, institutions and initiatives will gradually be dismantled.

Well you can compare them as they are all under the trans umbrella . Along with cross dressers and drag queens.
We didn’t set the rules on this, Stonewall did.

But agreed that it’s a mental health condition so shouldn’t be treated either powerful hormones or surgery and affirmation.