Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

[loveyouradvice]

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 ’the side of love, acceptance and tolerance’ ???? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Once you men accept the biological reality that you’ll never be women, then we can ‘talk’

Except tolerance of lesbian women who want to hold social events that exclude all male people, on account that they are only attracted to female bodies not male bodies. Why are they intolerable? Why are they prevented from organising and meeting? We call this homophobia, but the "side of love, acceptance and tolerance" tells these women to die in a fire. How loving.

It’s fundamentally misogyny (and homophobia), so it won’t die out. Just change form again.

While homophobia is mainly getting ghettoed, misogyny seems to thrive across society.

But if we can protect children from irreversible physical harm we’ll have made a massive save.

A healthier society with decent Mental health support for teenagers would really help.

Thank you all - this is SUCH an interesting thread...

This is an analysis I love (below) and chimes with what I know and hope, I just hope it happens rather faster than @akkakk thinks.... I have from the first moment I peaked (2017 - and could not understand why others didn't immediately get it too) thought that the long term solution and my expectation was the acceptance that gender is indeed fluid and to be celebrated, that non-conformism strengthens us all in our belief and ability to be ourselves, and what most needed to expand was the concept of what being a man is , to include those who are currently seen as transwomen.

akkakk · Today 07:51

I think the pattern we see now will go…
There is now a legal and general societal acceptance of the core biology - birth sex / can’t change etc.
This opens up all sorts of areas to correct - including the misconception held in the very word trans - and this has long been a battle centred on the misuse of language.

The acceptance journey is likely to be:
birth sex is what you are (current)
birth sex can’t be changed (current)
therefore there is no ability to transition
then an acceptance that gender is not equal to sex (societal construct v. biology)
than questioning around what transgender means if you can’t transition sex - what does it mean to transition gender when gender is fluid and a construct
then the realisation that in being ‘transgender’ you are not changing gender but instead helping to redefine your own gender / not conforming to society’s stereotypes

At that point the journey will be complete and society will understand that actually there is no such thing as transgender but instead gender non-conforming which should be celebrated.

In parallel there will I think be an increasing understanding of the need to deal with those who really believe that they should be the opposite sex with compassion and an understanding that it is a mental health pathway they need to- not affirmation and butchery.

So, yes I think we are at the start of that journey and I believe it will develop in that way… is that ‘wiping out transgender’? No - it is reframing it back to what it truly is and should always have been understood to be - that society’s stereotypes on gender can be harmful to those who don’t comfortably fit in - and I would hope actually make us a more compassionate and accepting society - while firmly ring fencing women’s spaces etc.

I think that in parallel / as a part of the journey, we are going to still see a lot of pain - from those who will have to take cases to court, and from those who society has wrongly labelled as trans who will need to readjust to a more accurate and healthy understanding of themselves, but that won’t be without pain.

Also in parallel, we will see a realisation of the vast safeguarding and child abuse scandal which has been ‘re-labelled’ for decades and where large sets of organisations and influential people will be complicit.

Women didn’t increase their rights by pretending to be men. If trans people want more rights and protection, they need to acknowledge who they are.

And also identify why they need more rights than everyone else.

Plus it's so boring.

This framing of ‘hate and fear’ is daft. Pretending it’s a load of old biddies terrified of change is silly. It’s not us who don’t know or understand you. It’s you. Being recognised as male is not especially a value judgement, and we know what it means, for women. You think the older men pushing kids into surgeries and drugs which harm and scar young bodies are coming from a place of love and acceptance? That women, and mums who want you to grow into the full, miraculous wonder of your body are evil? You don’t. Deep inside you know that’s not true.

And this is why it will all fail in the end. The sheer immaturity of every argument. If you put your fingers in your ears like a toddler hiding his eyes to be invisible, we can still see and hear you. No amount of telling us we are mean and silly old women will change that.

I don’t agree, at least not in the UK.

i tink the ‘Let’s wait for the guidance’ thing is the denial stage of grief. These people, and the institutions they had supporting them, were very, very sure they were the good guys who were right. I was surprised after the SC ruling to read, in their own words, how shocked they were to lose. The genuinely thought their win was a shoe-in. They genuinely believe their own propaganda that we are all thick, right wing bigots. In their minds, thick right wing bigots couldn’t possibly win.

i think these six months will give the institutions, at least, the time to let the fact they were wrong slowly seep in. When the guidance does not allow GI to rise Lazarus like from the dead, hopefully they will realise they have no choice but to obey the law.

There will always be a trans activist movement, but they have lost the the legal and political battle. Their power base, built as it was on the sand of wrong legal ‘advice’and wrong public predictions about how GI plays out in practice in the real world, is terminally diminished. II din’t think there is any way for them to get it back.

They rose to power because of ignorance about what GI meant legally and practically. People aren’t ignorant anymore. I don’t see anyway for trans activists to come back from this.

“we are the side of love, acceptance and tolerance, Winston.”

I mean you are quite literally being an aggressive man angrily replying to a young woman.

I'm not here to change anyone's minds, because let's face it no one's opinion here is going to change from an argument ion Mumsnet.

What I am saying is that the people who have supported me most in my transition are all women. My friends, my mum, etc. Young people from my generation just don't really care, for us it was normal and I'm not exactly far out from school. Love will win in the end, because love and acceptance are far stronger than hate and division. That's why when people actually know a trans person irl they are far more accepting of trans people's rights.

It's very easy to hate a minority when all you know them as are what the daily mail or your right wing echo chamber wants you to think they are, not so much when you know them irl and realise they're completely normal people.

Yep. My DD and her friends say that’s what turns them off the most. The identity kids literally talk about nothing else, all in hysterical tones of aggression and panic. No other interests, no other friends. The several trans identified girls of my acquaintance are all the same - rejecting life long friends, cousins etc all to hang on this tight little obsessive clan unable to talk about anything but trans lives mattering. Next years GCSE art topics are, of course, identity, cue 4 BLM pieces and 3 TRAHR pink and blue bits. Yawn. At least the rest of the kids are rolling their eyes and have personalities.

84% of lesbian women view trans people positively.

Citation needed

"Viewing positively" and "wanting to date" are different.
Do the ones who don't want to date someone with a male body have the right to a name for and a space for their sexuality? Because under the trans umbrella so far where enforced compulsory pansexuality is the norm, such women are made to feel shame and to hide their sexuality and pretend. They have been called equivalent to racists for daring to specify that they want to meet female women only.

Again, you've been sold a lie by people mistakenly trying to be kind. And I say 'mistakenly' not because kindness is bad, but because it has set you up for a life where anyone who tells you the truth has been cast as someone who hates you and wants you dead.

It's not true, it never was. Wanting actual women to have the legal rights they were always entitled to, and thinking that children should be allowed to make it to adulthood with their bodies and brains unmodified, is not hate. It is most people's reality and the world you're living in. If you are angry that it's not all affirmation and going along with your preferred version of reality you're going to need to take it up with Stonewall and Mermaids.

Believe it or not, I wish you well. I wish you well enough not to collude in a damaging lie.

You'll notice so few lesbian and bisexual women dislike trans people there isn't even room to add the numbers:

🤔😳🤯

It is a persecution fetish and what’s worse is it’s connected to a Victorian idea of a weak woman, who needs to be treated gently for her melancholia

Speaking as a Lesbian Feminist who spent most of her twenties campaigning and demonstrating to ensure equality of treatment under the law for gay people - for an equal age of consent, against Section 28, for the right to marry, all of the rights you now take for granted - I can tell you what trying to fight an entire society's worth of hate and fear looks like, up close and personal. There is not a law on the statute books that discriminates against trans people, and when you scream for "Trans Rights Now" I find myself laughing in absolute incredulity at the entitled and petulant ignorance of it all. Nobody in this society has any "special" rights you don't already have. And having also been on a lot of protests over the course of the recent unpleasantness which simply consisted of women attempting to talk to each other without some man or men like you shouting us down and telling us what we're allowed to think, say, behave or even wear I can only say if that is love, acceptance and tolerance you can keep it.

Love, acceptance and tolerance as long as no-one disagrees with you or says no, we don’t want to share female spaces with male people.

Then it’s death threats, rape threats, piss protests, campaigning for women to lose their jobs, campaigning against the right of women to meet as a female group to discuss things pertaining to female bodies.

As soon as anyone questions anything, it’s wall-to-wall misogyny.

Females have every right to self-organise, self-define and have privacy away from men when we want it. We are not service beings who exist to validate your beliefs about yourself. We are human beings just as much as you are. You can’t force people to agree that you have changed sex, we live in a free society.

Not rtft but I believe this goes deeper than we can imagine as so many parents are so invested and convince their children are trans.

as HJ said, they’re not going to row back in that easily.

and so much money has been invested into the grift, across charity sectors etc. many many many ppl will not want to see that fizzle away.

Viewing positively and not wanting to date a trans woman are two very different things. Lesbians are entitled to have their own spaces and can still be supportive of others.

Plus it would be helpful if you could reference your source.

I have some genuine questions I really hope you are kind enough to answer.

Have you been medically diagnosed as having body dysphoria and if so what was that process?

Has your mother encouraged you to seek psychotherapy support to explore your feelings over a long period of time? Is that process still ongoing?

What does it mean to be a woman?

How do you view the TRA calling for women to be raped and murdered and what have you done to push back on that in your community?

@AYoungTransWoman

let's face it no one's opinion here is going to change from an argument ion Mumsnet.

I disagree. I think discussion, even arguments, on MN have changed tens of thousands of minds, and without that the SC case would not have happened.

The MN feminism boards have never been a right-wing space.

The main thing that shifted was that centre and centre-left woman on here saw more and more of the arguments and the evidence, and made up their minds. "No debate" from the LGBT institutions turned out to be a short-term victory and a long-term strategic disaster for their cause. Isolating and shutting down dissenters left little room for quiet accommodation or calibrated compromise.

Your view is that right always prevails. I don't quite agree, but if you believe it, you should be having a "are we the baddies?" moment right about now.

I suspect the question was framed in that way on purpose - it’s not the same thing as wanting our own spaces or lesbians wanting to date men with identities. Of course people are mostly positive, it doesn’t mean they agree with your demands. Make your mind up - there’s either a terrifying creep of transphobia OR even same sex attracted women think you’re women. It’s not both.

I also highly doubt the results would be the same two years later. Another 2 years on, we have seen operation Let Them Speak in action - the piss protesters, the Amy George / Isla Bryson / Barbie Kardashian cases. The Willoughby hysteria, the state of a couple of high profile women transitioners, Helen Webberley melting down like a lunatic, Dylan Mulvaney and his gross mimicry. It all filters out of niche discussion spaces and into the mainstream, and the sheer deluge is doing the work for us now.

😁

presumably you know about bias in polls etc.
very few people have an issue with the individuals calling themselves transwoman / transman - they have huge issues with the lies / intimidation and aims that sadly seem to go with the movement…

now re-ask the question as:
”Should lesbians be required to accept transwomen as female and therefore lesbians rather than seeing them as male and not choosing to have a relationship with them”

or
“should lesbians be forced to have relationships with men just because they claim to be women?”

I think you would see a very different response to that more accurate framing of reality