Help end medical misogyny. Sign our petition.

Help end medical misogyny.
Sign our petition.

Sign the petition

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Am I naive in thinking that in a couple of years, if not sooner, this will all be behind us? A few court cases, people clear about the law, women's rights protected again??

1000 replies

loveyouradvice · 26/05/2025 23:04

And yes the noisy TRA far fewer in number and sidelined as the sad fringe that are left as others move on.....

Or do others think it will pan out differently??

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Helleofabore · 28/05/2025 19:02

AYoungTransWoman · 28/05/2025 18:55

Sex characteristics

You don't have female sex characteristics. If this is what someone has led you to believe, they have been lying to you.

You have modified male sex characteristics.

Care to tell us how male 'breast tissue' becomes the interactive system that is behind the breast and endocrine system of a female person?

Didn't you say that breast development in a male person is similar enough to a female breast? Is similar enough equal to having that sex characteristic?

Helleofabore · 28/05/2025 19:03

Datun · 28/05/2025 18:56

Sorry. You don't have female sex characteristics.

Also that precludes a lot of your compatriots

Edited

Remember how many male people with transgender identities we have had on FWR who are very active in gatekeeping who is and isn't a woman though?

This gatekeeping would not be unusual.

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 19:05

Datun · 28/05/2025 18:43

Crikey, even I wasn't prepared for the open denigration of homosexuality.

Even though I know homophobia is a driving force, I wasn't prepared for the unapologetic transparency.

Datun you are unironically saying it's perfectly accurate and respectful to casually define every trans woman with the regressive framing of a 'male homosexual' by default, regardless of her sexuality. You are aware that would be viewed as both homophobic AND transphobic, right?

And as for saying it's normal for members of the Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual community to self-describe as 'a male/female homosexual'. Are you immune to memes? Do they just pass you by? I'm trying to even remember the last time I heard anyone call themselves 'a homosexual' without a wry smile. We say that kind of shit to mock far right bigots who actually use that terminology in earnest. I don't think you are a far right bigot - why are you communicating like this? It's very strange and kind of sad.

And then you also refer to trans women as Trans-Identified Men, just in case anyone was still unsure.

Annoyedone · 28/05/2025 19:07

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 17:11

This is really quite saddening to read, and shows a repeating pattern.

You seem to be saying:

  1. You don't talk to your own mother anymore because you refused to accept your sister and this drove them both away. This is heartbreaking.
  2. That you believe your mother isn't capable of 'really' seeing her daughter as female. This may well be true.
  3. That it is important for mothers to deny children when they express gender dysphoria and refuse to accept their transness if it persists. (Imagine saying the same about same-sex attraction 30 years ago under Section 28 - it's eerily familiar rhetoric).
  4. That there is a trans woman in your life who you haven't yet alienated enough to drive away forever, and who appears to agree with you when the two of you are together.

Ok.

My experiences of my own friends and family are very different, but everyone's family is different I suppose. Maybe your mother really can't see your sister as female - she is clearly just trying her best to accept her child anyway, though, and I can respect that.

I know that you are going to labour the point you and other posters keep trying to make that I and other trans people are only being humoured by the people in our lives (I think there are actually some good points to be made about how many people struggle with latent transphobia and are desperately trying to wokewash their own behaviour, in much the same way that homophobes had to learn to treat the LGB people in their lives like human beings a decade or two ago after it stopped being socially acceptable to voice publicly. Hell, even trans people today aren't magically immune to transphobic attitudes!)

The thing is, you seem to not be considering that this same principle also applies to you - people in your life will humour your anti-trans views in person an extent because they don't want to turn every conversation into a battleground and want to keep their family and friendship groups together if possible.

Your complete refusal to accept your sister seems to have finally broken your family apart when they couldn't humour you and the harm your ideology was causing any longer.

That's heartbreaking - and a very common dynamic amongst many families I have spoken to who have also been torn apart by gender critical ideology. There comes a point where it just can't be stepped over like a missing stair anymore - where you just can't in good conscience keep inviting dear Sister or Auntie or Granny over, due to the harm it causes to the kids. Heartbreaking, but you eventually have to make the difficult call.

It also seems like something that would be so easy to repair as well, let alone to have avoided to begin with.

I asked my own mother what it would feel like to have one child begging for acceptance and another refusing to accept her for who she is and she said it would tear her apart and destroy her utterly. She would be incandescent over feeling like she was being forced to choose, and would find herself wondering if that lack of acceptance would extend to other facets of a family member's life rather than just the parts it is currently socially permissible to hold negative philosophical views toward.

I can unfortunately imagine precisely what hearing this stuff constantly must be like for your Transfriend (friend? Maybe she's just a Transacquaintance?). Hopefully she has robust filters in place and a solid support network - I know I find it exhausting to engage in person with people who are doing the conversational equivalent of kicking me in the teeth periodically, even more so than online. That said, she might find it tolerable if she isn't particularly dysphoric or has managed to frame being misgendered during your meetings as a sort of necessary evil.

You've clearly found a community here who accepts your ideological rejection of your sister, and (before that?) you found a place in the Dr Who fandom, but you seem to have said before that there is a great deal of tension there - which makes sense!

Dr Who is one of the most relentlessly inclusive and trans-positive shows on TV and has been for years. It makes me wonder how much of an influence you have in the Who fandom - and whether it has diminished over the last decade or so due to your behaviour. I could see a situation where a prominent fandom figure liberally throwing GC talking points about in a space populated by many trans people would actually encourage the community to close ranks, and if it got especially bad and impossible to ignore, it could encourage the show writers to write more trans-accepting stories and thus make it starkly clear where they stand. It would be hard to remain prominent or relevant in that community afterward!

You don't come across as someone who actually likes the Who fandom or even the show very much to begin with, honestly. You may find it less frustrating to disengage rather than continuing to hate-watch.

That said, you seem to talk about it in the past tense quite a bit, so you may already view it as something in your past.

This is an attitude I've seen in geek circles a great deal in recent years - holdouts who come together to lament how the IP they grew up with 'went woke' when they suddenly started noticing it conflicting with their own ideological standpoints. You end up with these little island universes that refuse to accept anything beyond a particular cutoff date in canon. It's particularly odd when said IP has always, transparently, been 'woke' within the climate of the times within which it was written. Star Wars is particularly egregious for it - the amount of screaming rage that has accompanied the release of the most recent series of Andor has been a sight to behold, and similarly for The Boys once a subset of fans finally realised that Homelander isn't supposed to be viewed as heroic.

If you have disengaged from the Who fandom, Bravo on moving on! If you are looking for TV shows that display appropriately virulent anti-trans attitudes then there is no shortage of classics from before the Great Awokening.

Old Who itself, of course, has a particular low budget earnest shaky cardboard-and-tinfoil charm as well - and barely ever resorted to getting mean or punching downward. Even the shaky early attempts at depicting trans characters were pretty interesting if a little tonally odd. I can't recall a single instance of overt mean-spirited transphobia and I've watched most of it at some point. It simply has never had a single malicious bone in its body, so no wonder most of the modern fandom - bar the holdouts - have no issue with trans people.

I think that the way you launched a jeering pile-on against me yesterday is an indication that you perhaps aren't someone for whom kindness or tolerance comes easily, even if your self-image says otherwise. You've certainly done a lot of sneering at me, and it has felt like a rather desperate point-scoring exercise that went on and on for several pages. I used to get plenty of that kind of thing from girls and boys at school, as a trans kid trying to catch up on missed social cues, so it's almost nostalgic in a way.

If you behaved like that to your sister, I'm not surprised that your family no longer talks to you - and wouldn't be surprised if you have lost your voice in the Who fandom as well if you've engaged in this kind of behaviour there. Many people - especially in geek circles - don't enjoy those who engage in behaviours that look awfully like bullying, and generally only play along out of fear or a desire to engage in ingroup signalling performances. There are plenty of well known geek social fallacies where people tolerate bullies due to the residual siege mentality and wish to be inclusive - but there are times when it just becomes too much.

You'd probably have more success with both your family, and the wider Who fandom (Whodom?) if you eased off on the anti-trans stuff. That really seems to be at the core of everything you have described as a source of conflict in your life.

I suppose this board's community will never challenge you for expressing gender critical or otherwise trans-hostile views - indeed, you'd be treated like other posters who haven't toed the line if you didn't - and is more than willing to support you, so you have everything you need here!

I think there's a Reddit board that dedicates itself to a virulently 'anti-woke' trans-hostile interpretation of old-left political thought. Same kind of gig as Spiked and its hybrid 'conservative leftism' holdout ideology. Can't remember its name and don't really care to expose myself to it again unnecessarily but you might find it to your liking. There seems to be a lot of lamenting the existence of trans characters in modern media. Obviously as with anything that markets itself as 'anti-woke', buyer beware.

I'm wryly glad you found yesterday's juvenile multi-page pile-on an entertaining opportunity to hold court and grandstand. It's certainly given me a lot to think about and reminisce on. I thought it was quite illuminating - as did quite a few observers who were vainly hoping that following the SC ruling, things would ease off and the board might become a little less overtly hostile to trans people.

My general policy for social media laugh-react storms is that the harder and more sweatily a dogpile labours a point about how loudly they are guffawing and how jolly a time they are having with their collective mockery of a single person for an innocent mistake or even just a statement they dislike, the more desperate they are to find straws to clutch to undermine said person. There is a characteristic desperation that almost looks like relief. It's fascinating to observe, and almost like clockwork. It seems like a perfect fit for a strategic policy of portraying trans people as inherently laughable, ridiculous and worthy of scorn and derision, should that align with your goals.

I don't think it will win you many friends amongst people interested in treating trans people with dignity and respect, but perhaps that isn't a priority for you.

Sorry, this got pretty long. Your disclosure of your family situation really upset me and I suppose I'm just trying to understand what leads a person to that point, and how that would affect the way they engage with the world.

I really hope you find a way ahead that allows you to reconcile with your family! The world would be a better place if more people were able to find a way to reconcile with and accept their parents and siblings.

I'm rooting for you!

Jeezzz. How long did it take you type that er…, interesting guff?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 28/05/2025 19:07

LOL.

TRAs: destroy the meaning of the words Man, Woman, Gay and Lesbian

Also TRAs: have an attack of the vapours when people go back to using biological and older sex-based words to get around the malicious reframing of language

Annoyedone · 28/05/2025 19:09

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 19:05

Datun you are unironically saying it's perfectly accurate and respectful to casually define every trans woman with the regressive framing of a 'male homosexual' by default, regardless of her sexuality. You are aware that would be viewed as both homophobic AND transphobic, right?

And as for saying it's normal for members of the Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual community to self-describe as 'a male/female homosexual'. Are you immune to memes? Do they just pass you by? I'm trying to even remember the last time I heard anyone call themselves 'a homosexual' without a wry smile. We say that kind of shit to mock far right bigots who actually use that terminology in earnest. I don't think you are a far right bigot - why are you communicating like this? It's very strange and kind of sad.

And then you also refer to trans women as Trans-Identified Men, just in case anyone was still unsure.

So what does call a man who has a trans identity? It can’t be a woman because women are female. I suppose we could take it to the level of trans meaning across from so we could call them…across from women? Would that work?

RedToothBrush · 28/05/2025 19:12

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 19:05

Datun you are unironically saying it's perfectly accurate and respectful to casually define every trans woman with the regressive framing of a 'male homosexual' by default, regardless of her sexuality. You are aware that would be viewed as both homophobic AND transphobic, right?

And as for saying it's normal for members of the Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual community to self-describe as 'a male/female homosexual'. Are you immune to memes? Do they just pass you by? I'm trying to even remember the last time I heard anyone call themselves 'a homosexual' without a wry smile. We say that kind of shit to mock far right bigots who actually use that terminology in earnest. I don't think you are a far right bigot - why are you communicating like this? It's very strange and kind of sad.

And then you also refer to trans women as Trans-Identified Men, just in case anyone was still unsure.

Oh give over.

You are grasping at straws to 'win' the argument. You'll say literally anything to 'prove' you are 'right'.

We've all seen this before.

It's what people do when they really have lost an argument or have made an incredibly stoooooopid mistake but are too proud to back down.

Honestly, sometimes I think you think we've lived under rocks and don't know a thing about arguing on the interwebs.

You Must Win.

Ok then. If we say you win, will you be happy then?

Nope, because you know that she's got a point. Just one you don't like.

You really would argue black was white if you thought it would get one over on certain posters you dislike.

We get it.

Datun · 28/05/2025 19:13

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 19:05

Datun you are unironically saying it's perfectly accurate and respectful to casually define every trans woman with the regressive framing of a 'male homosexual' by default, regardless of her sexuality. You are aware that would be viewed as both homophobic AND transphobic, right?

And as for saying it's normal for members of the Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual community to self-describe as 'a male/female homosexual'. Are you immune to memes? Do they just pass you by? I'm trying to even remember the last time I heard anyone call themselves 'a homosexual' without a wry smile. We say that kind of shit to mock far right bigots who actually use that terminology in earnest. I don't think you are a far right bigot - why are you communicating like this? It's very strange and kind of sad.

And then you also refer to trans women as Trans-Identified Men, just in case anyone was still unsure.

If you're attracted to men butters, you are a male homosexual.

However much it pisses you off

RainbowZebraWarrior · 28/05/2025 19:14

Annoyedone · 28/05/2025 19:07

Jeezzz. How long did it take you type that er…, interesting guff?

It's either a cut and paste job, or someone who doesn't have owt else to do with their time. Ironic really, given all the many friends and family members.

Annoyedone · 28/05/2025 19:14

To be fair, @ButterflyHatched is comedy gold. And the time typing out the posts…. That’s commitment for you. Gotta admire a man’s commitment to a task, even if it’s futile lol

Helleofabore · 28/05/2025 19:15

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 19:05

Datun you are unironically saying it's perfectly accurate and respectful to casually define every trans woman with the regressive framing of a 'male homosexual' by default, regardless of her sexuality. You are aware that would be viewed as both homophobic AND transphobic, right?

And as for saying it's normal for members of the Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual community to self-describe as 'a male/female homosexual'. Are you immune to memes? Do they just pass you by? I'm trying to even remember the last time I heard anyone call themselves 'a homosexual' without a wry smile. We say that kind of shit to mock far right bigots who actually use that terminology in earnest. I don't think you are a far right bigot - why are you communicating like this? It's very strange and kind of sad.

And then you also refer to trans women as Trans-Identified Men, just in case anyone was still unsure.

I mean .. how much can you get wrong in a post.

No, Datun didn't say all male people with transgender identities are male homosexuals, despite how you wish to be dishonest about it. And that would be incorrect.

And then, you are doubling down on arbitrating what some homosexual people wish to be called.

I mean this:

"I don't think you are a far right bigot - why are you communicating like this? It's very strange and kind of sad." is rather telling really.

Annoyedone · 28/05/2025 19:18

Annoyedone · 28/05/2025 19:14

To be fair, @ButterflyHatched is comedy gold. And the time typing out the posts…. That’s commitment for you. Gotta admire a man’s commitment to a task, even if it’s futile lol

Maybe they encourage him to be online, but like Charlotte Collins in pride and prejudice encouraged Mr Collins to go into his garden. If he’s waffling at is online, he’s not moithering them. We are performing a public’s service ladies. Be proud!!

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 19:20

Datun · 28/05/2025 19:13

If you're attracted to men butters, you are a male homosexual.

However much it pisses you off

I'm Bi, Datun

And I'm a trans woman.

Not a 'male homosexual'.

You are using this regressive framing because it feeds into ancient and thoroughly discredited 'homosexual transsexual'/'heterosexual transsexual' and Blanchardist rhetoric. Because, much like 'TIM' and 'transwoman' rather than 'trans women', you cannot bear to use terminology that shows even a modicum of respect or politeness toward trans people.

Helleofabore · 28/05/2025 19:23

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 19:20

I'm Bi, Datun

And I'm a trans woman.

Not a 'male homosexual'.

You are using this regressive framing because it feeds into ancient and thoroughly discredited 'homosexual transsexual'/'heterosexual transsexual' and Blanchardist rhetoric. Because, much like 'TIM' and 'transwoman' rather than 'trans women', you cannot bear to use terminology that shows even a modicum of respect or politeness toward trans people.

No. It is literally because some homosexual people wish to use the term and it is an accurate description of their sexuality. It is used in policy and law.

Annoyedone · 28/05/2025 19:24

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 19:20

I'm Bi, Datun

And I'm a trans woman.

Not a 'male homosexual'.

You are using this regressive framing because it feeds into ancient and thoroughly discredited 'homosexual transsexual'/'heterosexual transsexual' and Blanchardist rhetoric. Because, much like 'TIM' and 'transwoman' rather than 'trans women', you cannot bear to use terminology that shows even a modicum of respect or politeness toward trans people.

Ok you’re a male bisexual. Does that make you feel better?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/05/2025 19:24

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 19:20

I'm Bi, Datun

And I'm a trans woman.

Not a 'male homosexual'.

You are using this regressive framing because it feeds into ancient and thoroughly discredited 'homosexual transsexual'/'heterosexual transsexual' and Blanchardist rhetoric. Because, much like 'TIM' and 'transwoman' rather than 'trans women', you cannot bear to use terminology that shows even a modicum of respect or politeness toward trans people.

A male bisexual then.

RainbowZebraWarrior · 28/05/2025 19:26

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 19:20

I'm Bi, Datun

And I'm a trans woman.

Not a 'male homosexual'.

You are using this regressive framing because it feeds into ancient and thoroughly discredited 'homosexual transsexual'/'heterosexual transsexual' and Blanchardist rhetoric. Because, much like 'TIM' and 'transwoman' rather than 'trans women', you cannot bear to use terminology that shows even a modicum of respect or politeness toward trans people.

No. Its you who's reframing Homosexual and Bisexual.

Those terms aren't 'ancient' They are very much relevant and also very much what pisses me off as a gay woman, so I will thank you not to twist my sexuality to suit your own agenda. You really are a piece of work and an incredibly disrespectful one at that.

How you can even think of gaining a modicum of respect yourself when you are so insulting and rude just means you've lost your argument completely.

Clue: this entire thread is a testament to that end.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 28/05/2025 19:26

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 19:20

I'm Bi, Datun

And I'm a trans woman.

Not a 'male homosexual'.

You are using this regressive framing because it feeds into ancient and thoroughly discredited 'homosexual transsexual'/'heterosexual transsexual' and Blanchardist rhetoric. Because, much like 'TIM' and 'transwoman' rather than 'trans women', you cannot bear to use terminology that shows even a modicum of respect or politeness toward trans people.

Again, trans people cannot expect to appropriate the language that already meant somebody else, use that appropriation as leverage to demand they be treated as interchangeable with the original group, and expect that that original gruop, the one they have unnamed and colonised, will treat them with respect.

The pushback of the original people is not unreasonable. They react to your initial disprepectful land grab. It is entirely within your power to resolve this merely by acknowledging what both we and you already know - there is no underlying thing that makes both female people and you "women" so it makes no sense to try and say we are the same, and the reason women are "disrespecting" you is not because they hate you or want to impose old fashionised ideas on you or anything like that, it is purely and simply because you are encrouching on us in ways that harm us and we wish for you to stop.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 28/05/2025 19:28

NoWordForFluffy · 28/05/2025 17:59

Fuck me that sounds dangerous!

(I defend claims involving personal injury, some involving chainsaws. My work head is very much on!)

The saw on a stick, or the grabbing of ends?

I was using 'grab' as shorthand for clamp/wedge/otherwise secure if you're worried about me hanging on to a branch with one hand and chainsawing merrily away next to my fingers.

If it's the saw on a stick part, it's a very small chainsaw.

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 19:29

RainbowZebraWarrior · 28/05/2025 19:26

No. Its you who's reframing Homosexual and Bisexual.

Those terms aren't 'ancient' They are very much relevant and also very much what pisses me off as a gay woman, so I will thank you not to twist my sexuality to suit your own agenda. You really are a piece of work and an incredibly disrespectful one at that.

How you can even think of gaining a modicum of respect yourself when you are so insulting and rude just means you've lost your argument completely.

Clue: this entire thread is a testament to that end.

When was the last time you referred to yourself as a 'homosexual female'?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 28/05/2025 19:30

A "not" sneaked in there; it ought to read "will truly and deeply believe that they are what they obviously are not". Sorry about that.

RainbowZebraWarrior · 28/05/2025 19:31

Also, Hatched, in the words of Germaine Greer, I Don't Care. I don't care about you. I care about the safety of myself and my daughter.

Helleofabore · 28/05/2025 19:31

This seems timely.
Readers Note: No male person can ever live or experience life as a 'woman.' They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.
Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic when you unpick it!
Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way. But based on their own reaction developed over years of them reacting to the way they interact with society and themselves and how others interact with them while having a male body and a mind that processes stimuli in that male body.
Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is. They are still processing stimuli and making decisions based on the way they interact with society and themselves and how others interact with them while having a male body.
How can it be any other way?
The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.
A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.
They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.
Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.
How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.
The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid. But apparently, we should just let these male people into female single sex spaces.

RedToothBrush · 28/05/2025 19:31

ButterflyHatched · 28/05/2025 19:29

When was the last time you referred to yourself as a 'homosexual female'?

Oh so you have to refer to yourself in every day language at the appropriate time to get Butters Stamp of Approval?

The female homosexuals I'm sure have got the memo about approved language.

BreatheAndFocus · 28/05/2025 19:32

AYoungTransWoman · 28/05/2025 18:55

Sex characteristics

Incorrect. You added a word. Sex would have been enough. A woman is an adult human of the female sex.

By sex characteristics, I presume you mean breasts and other things? So, according to your incorrect definition, a woman without breasts is no longer a woman 🙄

Having breasts on your male body doesn’t make you a woman. Nor does taking oestrogen. Nothing will ever make you a woman because you were born and will remain male.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.