The words that have been pulled over your eyes

[FlirtsWithRhinos]

I initially wrote this as a reply to a thread in relationships, but rather than derail the thread I decided to post it in FWR as a thread in its own right about a common accusation made against gender critical feminists.

It is a response to the claim that the only people who object to the word "cis" are people who deny the existence of trans women, and that such people are transphobes.

"Transphobe", like "trans woman" and indeed "cis woman", are just the words trans activists use to hide what is really going on.

These words exist to hide one simple truth: Trans women are not, in any objective, real way, in any way outside their own heads, in any way that is real to anyone else, any closer to being a woman than any other man is.

"Trans women" in reality are just men who for some reason feel compelled (or sometimes just really want ) to adopt a cross-sex persona playing out whatever their idea of what a woman is.

The words exist to make it sound like a reasonable thing when such men demand that their wives, children, friends and family, colleagues, officials, all of society pretend they are women, let them enter private spaces for women, let them touch or counsel women in roles reserved for women, let them take prizes for women, let them speak for women.

Because we'd never accept that as ok from men. But it's ok for trans women, and if it's not ok that's transphobia.

And we'd never say women in general are more privileged and powerful than men, but call the men trans women and the women cis women and suddenly everyone nods along. And if they don't it's transphobia.

But I don't believe the thing that makes men and women different is our minds. And without that belief, the whole thing falls apart.

You seem to be self-identifying as an expert on the behaviour of the vast, vast majority of women who haven't devoted their lives to anti-trans crusading. Unfortunately it's evident that you have convinced yourself that every other non-trans woman lives her life in a cloud of perpetual transvestigatory paranoia.

I hope you are able to find a new special interest one day, and maybe some new people to talk to about it as well.

Well, now all those women who don't mind, can join you in the unisex toilet.

It's a win for everyone.

And in the vast, vast majority of cases where there is no unisex toilet or where doing so would impact the availability of already limited accessible toilet spaces, I should just get fucked and cease to exist in public life?

The ruling was bad enough. The way it has been taken well out of its original context by Falkner's small cabal of anti-trans extremists and turned into an all-you-can-eat transphobia buffet up and down the country is absolutely chilling.

If you'd told any normal person a decade ago that the UK would indulge a patently unenforceable, deeply harmful and completely deranged trans segregationist initiative over toilets, of all fucking things...

I'd prefer if you would admit the following

You are a man.
You surround yourself with yes men / women.
You twist words to suit yourself always centring you. Thats what this nonsense about 'non-trans women' is about - not because we dislike the word cis. Its a petty 'lets get one over on them'. And thats utterly what is all about.

But I don't expect you'll ever admit that for a second...

You think the whole world should revolve around you, and you've set up the world you live in to enable that and shun / close out everything and everyone who says no.

You deny that women have a problem, because you don't want to know because it doesn't suit you. Even when women TELL you its not ok.

You then scream persecution all the while CONTINUING to impose yourself on women and CONTINUE to deny that women take issue.

Its not persecution, to speak the truth. Being unable to speak the truth means someone is abusing power.

We get it. We see through it. We see you.

Your anger always ramps up in these posts as the women saying no to you inflames your male entitlement.
Use the toilets allocated to your sex, or use unisex toilets. You should never have been using women's toilets because you are not a woman.

Wow. You think this was about toilets? You really don't give a shit about women outside their usefulness to you do you?

I suggest you take the time to understand the journey FWS took to get to the SC.

(And i can't believe I have to explain this to an adult, but no you won't "cease to exist in public life" just because you have to use the facilities for your sex rather than those of some imaginary group of "the womanny minded" you invented for yourself to belong to that never actually existed outside the imagination of gender ideologues.)

Born male, use the mens. You have the right to use those loos and no man also using them should stop you.

It's very sad what this board has become. Page after page and thread after thread of venom against trans women. Looking back on old threads it was actually an interesting and useful place where discussions about feminism actually happened. Now it's just quite sickening to read. You'd be forgiven for thinking you were reading the comments in the Daily Fail.

I was responding to Datun, who made a snippy comment about unisex toilets knowing full well that these rarely exist in many practical situations.

I really don't find toilets an engaging subject to have to spend my time arguing, lobbying and protesting over, but I never asked for any of this nonsense. I just want to get on with my fucking life and not spend it begging hordes of people who want to ban essential healthcare and eradicate me from public life to maybe please show me a measure of humanity.

I see the opposite of negativity.
It's amazing to see the strength of feeling for women supporting women. I guess women know what it's like to have to fight to have, and protect, their rights.

Not eradicated...are male.

Unfortunately it's been a constant torrent of hostility and abuse ever since I finally mustered up the courage to start begging them to ease off the pressure on the knife they were holding to the throat of trans kids dependent upon GnRH agonists years ago. There seem to be very few threads about feminism, and a great deal dedicated toward sneering at or organising efforts to abuse or further marginalise trans people.

The knife shouldn't be used neither should drugs.
Mental health support for dysphoria is needed.

No one wants to eradicate you from public life. They just expect you to behave like an adult and stop appropriating female-only resources and language.

These things are not for you. They never were. They exist to support female people with the risks and challenges that being female in society brings.

I am sorry that the movement that was supposed to do the same for trans people veered off into a nasty and confrontational land grab of the things women built instead of doing something positive to support trans people in their own right, but it is absolutely not too late to change that. You can start to advocate for trans-friendly third spaces and accomodations any time and channel your disappointment away from misogyny and into real change. I wish you luck.

Unfortunately I've seen no evidence that you would not continue to sneer at trans lives and bodies and organise efforts to harass and further marginalise us no matter how much of ourselves we cut away trying to please you. Some of us have tried, to great personal cost.

Men could widen what it is to be male to accept all males equally. This way females keep their spaces and all males are accommodated regardless of labels, clothes, body alterations. It's win-win.

I do not "sneer at trans lives or bodies" nor "organise efforts to harass and further marginalise" anyone, and I sure as hell never asked anyone to "cut away" anything.

I simply do not accept your ideology's attack on the legal and social existence of female people as discrete from male, with different needs and challanges to male people regardless of how those male people may identify.

We can both exist, but we cannot both occupy the same words, the same legal rights and the same spaces because when you take them for yourself as a man who believes himself to be like us despite his body, you destroy them for us as people who know ourselves to be female because of our bodies.

We can both exist but you need to find your own truth, you cannot have ours. Telling you there is a boundary here is not an act of hate.

to start begging them to ease off the pressure on the knife they were holding to the throat of trans kids

Interesting choice of vile metaphor, given you yourself have used the metaphor of the Sword of Damocles dangling over your head because of the health issues you’ve been left with as a result of decades of hormonal mistreatment of your body, something people are trying to prevent being inflicted on children. Something you call “a knife to the throat of trans kids”. So they either have a knife to their throat or a sword dangling over their head decades later, according to you.

Why do you always resort to pointy weapon metaphors?

The very same sword that dangles precariously above the heads of non-trans women who take oral HRT for extended periods of time.

Also I'm very sorry that the English language is overburdened with sharp metaphors. Perhaps we shall one day overcome our cultural obsession with historical implements of warfare (or...current medicine?) and liberate ourselves from its linguistic shackles.

Er no. Most humans, male or female, in their 40s like you, don’t have a precarious health situation going on that is entirely iatrogenic. If people do have health concerns, it’s from a natural process of disease. Yours has been entirely caused by doctors. You see the danger inherent in this because of how you described it when you first started posted here.

Yet you have the audacity and vileness to claim that people trying to prevent children ending up in the same precarious health situation you are in now, are somehow doing so with a metaphorical knife to the throat of those children.

You’re essentially saying “let the kids end up as unhealthy and in as much danger to their health as I am!”

And somehow, we’re the bad guys.

You can significantly reduce the risks by switching to transdermal HRT patches, by the way. Which I did after recommendation by my doctor.

Ooh, how wonderful, decades of hormonal experimentation on your body and you’ve come up with a way you claim is reducing the risks of stroke, heart attack, pulmonary embolism, cancer. Where’s the data on this, that switching to patches reduces the risk of complications? Where does this fit in with children puberty blocked at Tanner stage 2, something you support?

But it’s still there though, isn’t it, the risk? It’s still a risk that wouldn’t exist if you were a man in your 40s who had never undertaken hormone treatment. It’s still a risk that you want children to have but we don’t.

It’s still a risk that you think is acceptable to subject children to for the undefined concept of gender identity and it’s still a risk that you think anyone trying to prevent children experiencing is guilty of metaphorical knife violence.

Why do you think this? Why do you think that people who read experiences like yours, someone who has irrevocably damaged your body and is at serious risk of serious disease and early death, someone who still hasn’t come to terms with one’s self and still exhibits anger at those in the world who do not accept the falsehood of your claimed identity, are somehow violent metaphorical monsters for wanting children to find a different way in life?

“You seem to be self-identifying as an expert on the behaviour of the vast, vast majority of women who haven't devoted their lives to anti-trans crusading. ”

Fixed that for you Hatched.

You see female people can reasonably make statements about how female people act and why based on their own discussions with women over their lifetime and their own knowledge about how female people act and think, partly due to female socialisation. It is called understanding that socialisation and female behaviour due to having a whole life experience of it from infant hood. I mean, we can be wrong about our statements on common female behaviour , but you won’t know in this particular instance even though you think you do.

But you, personally, have no experience at all in female socialisation and female behaviour . Maybe, it can be said that you have the experience of the simulation of it that you may attempt by using the stereotypes you may choose to emulate. But you will never have the experience of it. Because your every thought has been shaped by your male perspective, perhaps a perspective unique to a group with the philosophical belief they are female, but it is still a male perspective.

It is also always interesting that you continue to call women who campaign for their sex based needs to be prioritised when sex matters as ‘anti-trans’. Even when the logic to your use of the term ‘anti-trans’ has been pointed out many times. The logic still abides despite your lack of belief that it does. That is what material reality does, exist.

So again, if proiritising girls and women = anti-trans, prioritising transgender people can be reliably said to be anti-women and girl. Otherwise known as misogyny.

thanks for the clarification.

The answer is still no.

And no matter how many times anyone professes to the contrary, men can never become women.

Anyone who says differently is a liar.

It may not be what people want to hear but it will always be reality and that will always be the lived experience of every single human on the planet.

The people most aware of this, are the very ones who protest too much. It is their inescapable curse. Deep down they will always know.

Denial isn't a place in Egypt.

The snake oil is real.

As someone who has worked in the Criminal Justice system for over 20 years ; offenders, ex offenders and victims.
I have worked with only 2 trans men - both victims of violence. I one of these cases I think the psychiatrist that signed off on the person’s application for surgery to be utterly contemptible. The woman concerned was clearly the victim of long term systemic abuse. She was trying to escape and somehow believed that by changing “sex” this would stop😡
and
numerous trans women - some were the victims of violence but unfortunately most were perpetrators of some of the most heinous crimes.

And to be clear about my personal opinion/ observations “trans”is a completely meaningless phrase to describe ( or in some cases disguise) a range of other underlying issues. It suits certain groups to push this narrative.