The words that have been pulled over your eyes

[FlirtsWithRhinos]

I initially wrote this as a reply to a thread in relationships, but rather than derail the thread I decided to post it in FWR as a thread in its own right about a common accusation made against gender critical feminists.

It is a response to the claim that the only people who object to the word "cis" are people who deny the existence of trans women, and that such people are transphobes.

"Transphobe", like "trans woman" and indeed "cis woman", are just the words trans activists use to hide what is really going on.

These words exist to hide one simple truth: Trans women are not, in any objective, real way, in any way outside their own heads, in any way that is real to anyone else, any closer to being a woman than any other man is.

"Trans women" in reality are just men who for some reason feel compelled (or sometimes just really want ) to adopt a cross-sex persona playing out whatever their idea of what a woman is.

The words exist to make it sound like a reasonable thing when such men demand that their wives, children, friends and family, colleagues, officials, all of society pretend they are women, let them enter private spaces for women, let them touch or counsel women in roles reserved for women, let them take prizes for women, let them speak for women.

Because we'd never accept that as ok from men. But it's ok for trans women, and if it's not ok that's transphobia.

And we'd never say women in general are more privileged and powerful than men, but call the men trans women and the women cis women and suddenly everyone nods along. And if they don't it's transphobia.

But I don't believe the thing that makes men and women different is our minds. And without that belief, the whole thing falls apart.

every woman I know has told me off for feeling afraid to use female facilities

Bully for them. I'm telling you now when you use women's facilities you will scare women, you will make women afraid, you will upset women. That includes rape survivors, women of certain religions, and women who are just unnerved by your male physiology, and those who just want privacy from men.

I know you don't care, and this won't stop you. But let nobody say you're not aware.

@ButterflyHatched

"it's annoying enough when it happens to any non-trans woman with short hair, above average height or who dares to be over the age of 40."

But not, weirdly enough, to trans men.

every woman I know has told me off for feeling afraid to use female facilities'

The male entitlement is off the bloody scale. Who gives a shit what your mates say??

What the hell have other women's spaces got to do with them?

The response I got off a transwoman is hopefully it would result in more third spaces than they would work for them better.

No mates there validating.

I think some transwomen only surround themselves with friends who validate for a reason thus when they say 'well all my mates say', it's a little bit like Stalin saying 'well all my generals agree with me' in terms of only being surrounded by yes (wo)men.

Fight, flight, fawn, freeze.

Not many women are going to choose 'fight' when confronted with a male. Most choose 'fawn', especially if 'flight' isn't a socially acceptable option. Lots of them don't even realise they're doing it, these responses are so ingrained.

Yes, we know that you surround yourself with female people who have only ever told you that you should use the female single sex spaces.

However, we have not emotional investment in making you feel happy so we tell you the truth, to you directly. You don't like it, but you have been told something by women invested in your wellbeing who have acted as if they have the right to consent for all other female people. They don't have that right to give consent for all other female people.

You have also accepted their comments as if they are telling you to full truth when they might not have. They might never admit to you that your very presence in a female single sex space makes them uncomfortable for a variety of reasons.

If you break laws, you need to understand that just because a women who is heavily invested in telling you what you want to hear has said it was fine for you to use the female single sex space, it is not. And you need to be an adult and accept this.

Yes. ^this^

I'm reminded of this piece about Mridul Wadwha of Edinburgh Rape Crisis infamy.

https://virginiasroom.co.uk/f/on-validation-and-tolerance

Suddenly, my friend demanded our attention and asked us all, out of nowhere: "Is M a man or a woman?"

I looked immediately at M expecting that this question would seem impolite and intrusive to her, but I saw that she was welcoming it. I now realise that she had asked my friend, our host, to question us about how we perceived her.

[...]

I now understand better what happened that night. Some friends were having a good evening, men, women, trans or not, all together. There was acceptance and mutual respect. Then someone asked us to lie, or prove that we were willing to forgo truth and self-respect in order to validate someone else's identity.

[...]

Dear MW, it wasn't kind 14 years ago to ask us to lie, and I am truly sorry that I did, in the name of kindness.

A good reminder NS.

It is highly unlikely any female person who has any type of emotional investment in ensuring a male person is kept happy and unaware of the female person's discomfort will be honest about their true feelings on this topic.

It seems completely unbelievable that someone doesn't understand this fundamentally. But that takes brutal honesty about yourself and a depth of emotional intelligence about other people.

You’re breaking the law mate

hope that clears things up for you and your friends

Relevant tweet from Victoria Smith today:

It's funny how some men think the agreement of only some women is needed to let male people into female-only spaces, but 100% of women need to be in agreement to refuse it. You'd have thought - at least if these men understood consent - it ought to be the other way round.

Given how many organisations and individuals have said publicly that they don't intend to abide by the Supreme Court judgment until absolutely forced to and perhaps not even then, I'm not sure why you have such a touching belief in the idea that female spaces are now entirely single-sex. Have you done any reading at all on this issue?

Note how women who may have a trauma response to coming across a man in a female only space are characterised as 'bigots'.

The compassion and kindness and understanding are only expected to flow in one direction.

What exactly is a ‘non trans woman’? Is it the same as a ‘non man’?

Just in case you’re confused, there are two sexes, men and women, and everyone is either one or the other. There’s no need for prefixes.

And were they all called Albert Einstein and did everyone clap?

And Joly boy citing ‘all the eminent KC’s I know’. It’s all bollocks.

My irony meter just exploded.

I thought @ButterflyHatched had said boundary transgressing men were creeps. Is Butters saying that any TW transgressing women’s boundaries and entering women’s spaces is a creep?

I don't believe it, anyway.

And I don't really get what it's meant to prove. Is butterfly walking around in public, taking a coterie of approving women with him everywhere??

Or is he phoning them up and saying right I'm in Marks & Spencer's, do you think I should use the ladies? What about now, I'm at the George and Dragon, what do you think? I'm at Paddington...

Because I honestly cannot believe that my mate says it's okay, so fuck you, would be spoken by any kind of adult

Are we really at the level of look, if your mate said to jump off a bridge...

I keep remembering a male activist with a transgender identity who I came across around Christmas, Verity maybe the name.. I can't be sure. Anyway, they were posting on twitter about how they pass. And yet, when you saw the selfies and the family photos, they really didn't pass even in photos. Yet, this person was posting very confidently in replies that they passed.

I really think that some people will only hear what they want to hear and will dismiss the rest as being hateful and untrue. When in fact, people who are heavily invested in not upsetting this person have obviously told them that they pass whereas they don't pass in photos even. Their facial cues are male.

There is danger in only listening to people who will say whatever is expected to keep someone happy and on side.

I've been scolded for using the more technical prefix to signify not-trans, so I just say not-trans in places that aren't trans-friendly. It takes a bit longer to type and feels a bit awkward, but it's hard to have a discussion on the subject otherwise.

Nah, you use that language because you like trying to wind women up because you don’t like us very much

Suppose you could ask Claire Prihartini

Would you prefer I say 'cisgender women' or 'cis women' for short?

You know the right word lovey, you’re just trying to wind people up because you’re furious about women saying no to you