The words that have been pulled over your eyes

[FlirtsWithRhinos]

I initially wrote this as a reply to a thread in relationships, but rather than derail the thread I decided to post it in FWR as a thread in its own right about a common accusation made against gender critical feminists.

It is a response to the claim that the only people who object to the word "cis" are people who deny the existence of trans women, and that such people are transphobes.

"Transphobe", like "trans woman" and indeed "cis woman", are just the words trans activists use to hide what is really going on.

These words exist to hide one simple truth: Trans women are not, in any objective, real way, in any way outside their own heads, in any way that is real to anyone else, any closer to being a woman than any other man is.

"Trans women" in reality are just men who for some reason feel compelled (or sometimes just really want ) to adopt a cross-sex persona playing out whatever their idea of what a woman is.

The words exist to make it sound like a reasonable thing when such men demand that their wives, children, friends and family, colleagues, officials, all of society pretend they are women, let them enter private spaces for women, let them touch or counsel women in roles reserved for women, let them take prizes for women, let them speak for women.

Because we'd never accept that as ok from men. But it's ok for trans women, and if it's not ok that's transphobia.

And we'd never say women in general are more privileged and powerful than men, but call the men trans women and the women cis women and suddenly everyone nods along. And if they don't it's transphobia.

But I don't believe the thing that makes men and women different is our minds. And without that belief, the whole thing falls apart.

The hyperbole that we see written by male posters who have transgender identities never seems to diminish, does it flirtswithrhinos?

Apparently, expecting someone to make appropriate choices based on their sex and not on their philosophical belief is impossible to contemplate.

It is stark isn’t it?

But you see it, you can not unsee it again.

Once you see a lot of things you can't unsee them.

And narcissistic behaviour is unmistakable and unmissable.

We shouldn't be having conversations about the pronouns she/her or he/him. We should be having conversations and me/I and how much they are used.

I fully agree Red.

I used to classify it as a lack of self-awareness. Now I realise that I was wrong and that it was as you say.

You can use the mens. You’ll be fine and you’ll have the added bonus of knowing you’re not one of those boundary transgressing creepy men. That’ll be a right boost for your self esteem and mental health so win win.

I'm baffled, to be honest. What do you think is going to happen if you use the gents'?

Ps @ButterflyHatched ir was never just about toilets….

It’s not really just over toilets it’s over changing rooms, sports , hospital wards, the right to single sex care, refuges and prisons.

You aren’t tinker belle, you won’t puff out of existence just because I don’t believe you are a woman and shouldn’t be in female single sex spaces.

Use the gents or choose places to go with unisex loos. For many people (me included) planning your life around availability of suitable toilets is a really normal thing to do. Campaign for more unisex spaces if it’ll help.

It's the law. It's always been the law. Just use the gents. Like every man has always done.

Good Lord. It's a bloody toilet. You already claimed that you avoid women's toilets when you can, just keep doing that.

The world does not revolve around you, butterfly.

What do you think women did prior to baby changing units and breastfeeding protocols?

We had to design our entire day around changing and feeding our babies.

And guess what, there wasn't a whole shaft of apps to tell us where we could do it either.

Do you think, in your wildest dreams, that you would ever have heard a woman saying oh my God you're holding a knife to my throat because I can't just feed and change my baby wherever I want??

I can tell you one thing, if womanhood was the award that you all wish it was, none of you would ever win it.

Get a grip. It's not you who are being harassed and marginalised because you have to stay out of the ladies.

It's your compatriots, not ours, who are threatening to rape and kill women, standing in front of the houses of Parliament and telling us to be very afraid.

Nice try. We’re women, but you already know that.

We just want womens spaces to be free of males.

That's all.

You were asked for a proven example. She hasn’t even confirmed it herself and immediately after her swivel eyed loon of a husband posted it, she deactivated her SM account. Surely she would have been falling over herself to confirm his every word.

'Deranged'.

Women who don't agree to any man who wants to use the women's loos doing so are deranged?

I’d prefer you said absolutely nothing at all if I’m honest.

If you'd told any normal person a decade ago that the UK would indulge a patently unenforceable, deeply harmful and completely deranged trans segregationist initiative over toilets, of all fucking things...

Men have never been allowed in the women's toilets. Good Lord.

And of course TRAs want it segregated. That's the whole bloody point. They don't want the entire country to be unisex. They want segregation for everyone else, just not them.

And here we have it, the patronising, just short of abusive behaviour, because you haven’t been able to control the narrative, because we’re not acquiescing to your beliefs.

It’s so predictable and laughable that you clearly think you bother us with this nonsense, it’s ‘operation let them speak’ in action, every time even one woman who hasn’t quite peaked reads this rubbish, it’s one more brick being dismantled from this insidious, regressive, misogynistic ideology.

And of course TRAs want it segregated. That's the whole bloody point. They don't want the entire country to be unisex. They want segregation for everyone else, just not them

Of course. They don't want to risk other men interrupting their unfettered access!

‘If you'd told any normal person a decade ago that the UK would indulge a patently unenforceable, deeply harmful and completely deranged system where women are supposed to accept men in their single sex spaces, prisons, sports and rape crisis centres, people would believe you’d lost your mind’

There, fixed it for you. HTH.

You do know you have a choice about reading it? There’s no venom, we are simply having to explain that men aren’t women, and due to the clarification of the law after the SC ruling, that those men who have been using facilities specifically designed for women can no longer do so, and have in fact, been breaking the law up to now.

I presently can’t think of anything more important than asserting our rights as women to spaces and sports and gatherings that are free of men. But please feel free to offer a list of things that you feel are more important, because many of us also fight other battles for women in our everyday lives.

How about you show women ‘a measure of humanity’ by staying out of our spaces? How about you accept that you don’t have the right to trample all over us because of your feelings and your beliefs about yourself. How about you stop expecting women to validate you and always put you first. How about you show a bit of humanity to women in general.

Nobody is telling you to cease to exist, you just use the men's. It's not hard.

If using toilets in the company of male people is unthinkable for you, why do you expect women to use toilets in the company of male people like you?

Oh dear, now we have the hyperbolic and hysterical language coming into play, you really stick to the script don’t you?!

Mumsnet is primarily for women, because only women can be mothers, the clue is in the name. If you feel there’s nothing here for you then why ‘torture’ yourself by coming here? We will not bend to your will, we’ve heard all of the hyperbole, threats, abuse, coercive behaviour and lots more besides. It doesn’t work anymore.

Tbf I have long been convinced that butters is a deep state double agent for T.E.R.F. Surely No one could be that lacking in awareness of the effect of what they say

Please show me where women have ‘organise efforts to harass and further marginalise us’, because all I’ve seen is women requesting our legal rights to spaces without you in them, something which you clearly object very strongly to. You have no right to be in our spaces, what you and other trans people decide to do to your bodies is entirely your choice.

As far as women are concerned, no amount of surgery or body modification will ever make you a woman, so you are not welcome or entitled to be in our spaces. You choose the road you’re on, no woman has ever asked anything of you other than to stay out of our spaces.