Have I completely misunderstood GCSE biology...

[proximalhumerous]

...or is the purpose of spotting an anomaly not specifically to disregard it in order that it doesn't lead to an inaccurate conclusion?

If so, why is everyone fixating on DSDs as "proof" that sex is a spectrum, when the anomalous 1.7% (if indeed it is as high as that - from what I've read that figure is only achieved if you include conditions such as PCOS which have a tenuous claim at best to be one of the "intersex" variations) is clearly a set of results that don't fit. Because something has deviated from the norm. It's not like calculating the mean of a range of heights, FFS.

Please can someone more scientific than me explain what is going on here? Or is it simply that certain factions are so hell-bent on arguing that anyone with ladyfeels can be a woman they're happy to completely disregard any sort of science or logic in order to do so?

Let me shout

i am a woman

i want to be treated just like any man at all times except where my specific biology means that’s inappropriate

so women’s sized safety gear but listened to in a meeting
appropriate medicine doses but no mansplaining
my voice carrying weight not the size of my boobs

see going into men’s toilets doesn’t matter to me even though I want to be treated like a man - because I know I am not and o know that single sex toilets are provided to help balance the world a little more evenly , a little less in men’s favor

gee sex differences between women and trans women

I can assure you that I am not misinformed and am working on a sample size much bigger than ‘my sister in law’.

Living as a woman is the phrase used for attempting to navigate the world ‘as if’ one were a woman. The idea being that this is a trial before permanent and irreversible treatment is accessed.

In recent years, this trial period/experiment was undertaken during a period where the law was misunderstood/ misrepresented and wrongly enacted. Therefore, the trial was misleading. Medics should have made it clear to patients that they will not be accepted as the sex they want to be by everyone and that this is something they need to accept should they physically transition. They should have been told that the law can change (or be reinforced as was intended) and laws are different in different countries. Patients would then make their decision with their eyes open (aka informed consent).

I have done this routinely with children, young people and families over the past 25 years. It has always been an unwelcome narrative, but has been understood as a compassionate intervention not a hostile one.

And here we go again.
I wish there was some honesty to the discussion and TRAs would just come out and say 'I don't support sex-based rights for women'. Fine. We live in a democracy. There is free speech. Just be honest.
But the pretence around 'but my lovely trans friend' and the 'terrifying bearded transman' and the 'TW have to use female spaces specifically and can't possibly pee anywhere else or join a different football team' or whatever is really infuriating.
Many women believe that women need sex-based rights due fundamentally to the differences in our biology (eg men are bigger and can rape, women can give birth and lose their careers for that etc etc). If women are to have rights, they have to be sex-based otherwise there is no way to define legal categories in order to allow women to take an equal place in society as men.
And obviously trans people also have 'extra' rights against discrimination under the Equality act.
So perhaps instead of using female rights (thereby rendering them meaningless by turning them into unisex rights) TRAs can use their many powerful, rich male allies to fight for more third spaces (a fight which many women would be more than happy to assist I'm sure).

I am strongly of the belief that females should not have to provide any reason as to why they don’t want any males, for whatever reason, in female only provision.

Argument about the vulnerability, offending rates, level of risk of sub groups of males and how this affects their right to access female only provision is bonkers. Sex and sex alone should determine access to single sex provision, otherwise, it should not be called a single sex provision.

This takes us back to what underpins the OP- claims that sex is too complicated to be a category that determines provision. However, if we see this argument taken to its conclusion, there never will be a proportionate and legitimate reason that will meet the bar from provision of single gender provision.

The smoke is clearing from the ‘smoke and mirrors’ that enabled the erosion of single sex spaces. Autie and her brother-in-law have, in my opinion, every reason to be sad, angry and confused. Her brother-in-law is one of many victims of TRAs actions and ver the past 15 years - alongside women.

I find TRAs very intellectually dishonest TBH. I read a lot on both sides and often find myself questioning my stances. I am willing to admit I find some GC arguments weak and even a bit cringy. I don't think I've ever seen a TRA admit any merit in GC arguments whatsoever.

I feel like this thread has grossly misrepresented what the trans community are actually saying.

How so? DSDs are forever being referenced as "proof" that sex is a spectrum. That was the specific thing I'm taking issue with in this thread.

But the whole “see as a woman” what does it mean when most times women don’t want to be seen as women but as human first and women
second

twhy have to move on from the DSD stuff as it doesn’t prove what they want it to prove

Very few people are xx or xy, there are literally 1000's of combinations.

Um, really?? 🤔 I'm pretty sure that isn't correct.

After all, even if "intersex" conditions account for 98.3% of the population (which seems questionable) that still leaves an awful lot of people who are XX or XY.

I've genuinely got changed for a night out, and shared a bed with following the night out, with a couple of my male friends over the years and didn't once feel uncomfortable. That doesn't mean I they're allowed in women's spaces or that other women should be happy to do the same.

I felt comfortable precisely because I know them.

I also know 2 trans women. One is lovely, kind, wouldn't say boo to a goose etc. The other is rude and aggressive and I hate the weeks "she" turns up to the social group we all attend.

Oh good I get to roll this one out.

Which of these should be we be happy to change in front of or share other single sex spaces with?

They're all real people, and one is a transwoman, one is non binary, one is a man. Is one allowed in the women's facilities and the other two not? Two allowed in and one not? Or shall we keep them all out on the grounds that the are all clearly men and as such don't qualify for women's single sex spaces?

It'd be really helpful if PP who can't see the issue and thinks we're all nasty exclusionary TERFs could point out which of these people she's happy to share with and which not, ta in advance

Here is one.

Yes and if a male demands access to a space that he knows is female-only then that is an immediate red flag.

There you go @autie another name for you

https://www.lincs.police.uk/news/lincolnshire/news/20252/may/registered-sex-offender-jailed-for-child-sexual-exploitation-and-breaching-court-order/

I think ‘Exceptionalism Bias’ is at play with some trans identified males whereby cognitive distortion allows them to maintain a positive self-image while disregarding broader realities. They think there are legitimate reasons for viewing themselves as unique exceptions to general rules or risks. A non trans example of this is that of someone believing that stealing is wrong but justifying a personal exception for stealing a certain item in a given context.

The trans umbrella leads to there being a range of reasoning underpinning males thinking it justified to access female only provision.

'Gender identity' is just PERSONALITY. That's all. There are around 8 billion people on this planet, two sexes, and 8 billion personalities.

That's it.

No such thing as 'gender'. Gender is a man-made, misogynistic social construct to put females in boxes based on sexist stereotypes.

As to what rights we have lost? Are you serious? Have you been living under a rock? The right to female only single sex spaces such as toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, battered womens shelters. Female only sport. Fair and accurate crime data reporting etc.

Your question, if you've been paying attention to the feminist protests, can't be genuine.

This 'now men can walk into a woman's space claiming they are female' is so nonsensical it's been debunked weeks ago. Do catch up.

You really don't get it. It's not about feeling threatened by 'trans people' - as if they are a third sex or separate species of human.

It's about feeling threatened by MALES in our intimate safe female only spaces. MALES. Em ay el ee ess. MALES.

It's about male vs female. Not 'trans people'.

No one is making things harder for 'trans people'. It is NOT ABOUT 'TRANS PEOPLE'.

We are making things harder for MALES to enter female spaces. That's it.

Trans people aren't a separate species, you know. They are either male, or female.

The law was enforced for decades and decades, until the last 8 to 10 years. We go back to how we always did it until the Mens Rights/trans social contagion started.

Social contract. All men stay out so that bad men stand out. Allow women the right to scream, point, mock, laugh at chase males out of our spaces. Grannies hitting men with their walking sticks. Calling the police and having these filthy male predators arrested. Allow women the power to call the police without us being branded 'phobic'. Males teaching these males 'a lesson'...

How the hell do you think we coped for a century, until recently? This 'oh no, how can it be done?' really confuses me.

I don't care what you think, you DON'T have the right to give away our consent. Women, say no. And less than 8% of transwomen actually have the operation or change their body.

If they 'just want to wee', they can do that in the MALES. The males also have stalls.

There you go!

Whether some women don't feel threatened by males is yet another irrelevance. As it is also irrelevant if some women don't want to work and don't care about equality in the workplace or that some women may hate sport and not care whether males enter female sport to win. Also irrelevant that there are nice men and that the majority wouldnt attack a woman. Because this is a question of the Equality of sex classes, of which there are 2, male and female. The individual interests within those sex classes is not the point. The point is to put in place rules to allow females as a sex class to take equal importance in society.

Most of those cases were setups.

Regardless, that does not mean we remove all the hard work our foremother feminists did, and destroy female only spaces. Women understandably being on high alert, is the result of males entering our spaces, in the first place.

I doubt I've read a thread with so much dsd bullshit on it. Dsd are real therefore trans women are women. Nope can't deal with this shit today.

Oh ffs you are throwing up every old tired debunked argument, myth and trope we've seen at least 3 thousand times. Do you honestly think you're the first to present these 'arguments'? We've seen these arguments at least 3 thousand times on here. They are as weak, pitiful and pathetic and absurd and batshit now as they were 2999 times before.

Not even the most ardent trans activist uses the photo test anymore. You realise photoshop can do wonders? It's in person, it is in the MOTION: the gait, not just the voice, adams apple, lack of hips, square jaw, height, limb size, hand size, philtrum width etc etc etc.

Yes there have been. And transwomen exposing themselves to women and masturbating there. This thread has evidence: x.com/HawkeyeTownsend/status/1925212259422265824

But it's not just that. It's the rights of the oppressed sex class - females, to have a safe single sex space away from male gaze, not just for safety, but for privacy and dignity. Do you not wonder why we have male and female changing rooms, in the first place?

It's not just about safety Its about PRIVACY and dignity away from the male gaze. Women flee from males to the toilets. Seek support from other women. Miscarry. Cry. Rinse out blood-stained underwear at the sink and Mooncups. Get changed for clubbing out in the open near the sinks. Adjust ourselves such as our bra. Males in that space traumatise us.