TW who supports the SC ruling - AMA

[VanishingVision]

Hello! I was thinking of doing this post for a little while now as the previous posts doing this by the rather wonderful trans men here were really interesting but I didnt want to take up too much space here or take any attention away from much more important things here than what I have to say.

But I figured to just go for it before I have a big old break from the Internet for a while.

So like the title says, I'm a transwoman who accepts the SC ruling: ask me anything if you'd like to and I'll do my best to answer.

Do you agree with me that all people claiming to be trans can be categorized in one of three categories - those with gender dysphoria or other mental health issues / neurodiversity; those with autognephilia or transvestic fetishism (ie sexual motives /paraphilias); and those who are not really trans and are nothing more than dishonest predators using "trans" to access vulnerable women and children?

What do you think of the idea that those who fall into the latter two categories deserve no sympathy at all from society, no accommodations at all, and that the former category would be better off with mental health support / therapy, not medical interventions with serious side effects and risks (medical and regret)?

Do you agree that all humans are constantly assessing the age and sex of everyone around them in society - it is an inherent evolutionary thing that we do in order to identify potential sexual partners in order to procreate, and as part of our constant risk assessment? If you do agree, then do you also agree that deliberately hiding one's sex is inherently anti-social, as it causes those around you to have to think more, ponder their lack of certainty, rather than just assess sex and move on in a fraction of a second?

[As an aside, I wish to make clear that there are all sorts of things in society where there is a conflict between individual freedom, and what is best for society, and it always needs to be weighed up - that certain behaviours harm wider society does not mean we should be all of them - individual liberty matters too.]

I would be very open to banning all medical, hormonal and consmetic transition, including for all adults - what can you say to convince me that the harm to deserving trans people (the mentally vulnerable IMO, not the autogynephiles) would outweigh the benefits to society?

Would you ever allow someone with BIID to have a leg amputated, and if not why should a penis or breasts be different?

@JamieCannister I'll let OP answer since it's not my thread (much though I want to answer!)

But given you mention AGP I wonder if you've seen this post I made yesterday in another thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5326486-thank-you-from-a-trans-lurker?reply=144329845

i'm sorry that your body causes you such distress. We dont generally treat body dysphoria with surgery and when there is surgery for gender dysphoria it generally has a very high complication rate. So I find it odd that we have threads in which people claim to be physically healthier. What warnings did you receive about the risks to your long term health? Did you have any interest in having children and were you offered sperm preservation?

Did you feel your family were homophobic? Was was their reaction when you told them you were attracted to men? Did you join any homosexual support groups?

You have mentioned a man wishing to assault you. Does this happen often? Has any woman ever tried to harm you?

Thank you so much for explaining this. I note that you do not say you "changed sex" - you wanted to disassociate yourself from the (I presume visible) sex characteristics of your sex.

I applaud that you've been using the men's since Jan this year and I applaud the guy who correctly intervened when you got stupid comments from a drunk guy.

Thanks for coming here.

My question is whether you think the GRA should be repealed due to its falsification of the birth certificate, and replaced with other legislation that addresses any outstanding points now that same sex marriage is legalised? And what are those outstanding areas that a trans identifying man* like you wants to argue for, now that you can marry another man? Thanks.

*That's my preferred term if that's ok, hope you don't find it insulting.

I have seen a few Alexis Blake videos and I think she is a very reasonable trans woman (yes I have deliberately called her she)

She feels that autogynephiles, tra's and self id have caused all this hate towards their community at the expense of genuine trans people. She disagrees with trans women in female sports. She calls herself a trans woman not a genuine woman. Her partner refers to himself as a gay man.

If you want views from a middle of the road trans woman this is probably a good person to look at.

@SparklyPinkHairband
And what are those outstanding areas that a trans identifying man*
*That's my preferred term if that's ok, hope you don't find it insulting.
I certainly don't mind what people call me, but I just wanted to say I think 'trans-identifying male' would probably be a better phrasing since 'trans man' is (for better or worse) already a well established phrase that means something opposite to what you mean. The language around all this is confusing enough as it is!

Do you think things will calm down?

My transwoman brother is very scared and very angry about the ruling. He's turned on family because although we have supported him - money, new name, new pronouns etc we won't say TWAW.

He is a very recent transwoman and was previously a very sexist banter type 6ft bloke living a male privileged lifestyle. Do you find that you have little in common with this section of the trans community?

Scared of what? Physical safety, or being required to follow the sex based rules that everyone else also has to follow, and not being praised for his identity?

Do you agree with me that all people claiming to be trans can be categorized in one of three categories - those with gender dysphoria or other mental health issues / neurodiversity; those with autognephilia or transvestic fetishism (ie sexual motives /paraphilias); and those who are not really trans and are nothing more than dishonest predators using "trans" to access vulnerable women and children?

this is what i think, and i have heard it a lol on mumsnet

i also think that the 2nd two categories and toxic tras have fucked it up for the first category

He's scared like Chicken Licken the sky is falling in.

Sadly, we think part of his new identity is getting beaten up by men. He deliberately provoked a pub fight. We don't know the full story but there's some bizarre risky behaviour mixed in with this style of Trans. This feeds into the poor trans people narrative which is a world away from it seems the OP.

Thank you for this thread OP and to @TroubledWatersTW for the additional thoughts.

I don't have any questions to add because my primary interest in understanding gender dysphoria is where it conflates with autism - and this doesn't seem relevant to the AMA - but some great questions have been asked and I'm following with interest.

@DuchessofReality I agree with this ⬇️

I think transpeople who asked for accommodations that minimally affect others would get a lot of support. Such as:
Requirements for employers of a certain size to have unisex toilets.
NHS records to accurately record sex and gender as potentially different.
Exemptions for trans police officers from carrying out strip searches.
Better research on the long term effects of surgery and hormones.

Hopefully the SC ruling will be a catalyst for more discussions in the public discourse about all of these points.

Re the NHS recording information, from my POV it's similar to how they record any other belief. Many beliefs will impact how someone accesses healthcare, ranging from accommodating dignity (e.g. removal of headscarves or wigs for women who cover their hair for religious reasons - there would need to be no men in the room/bay) to impact on treatment choices (e.g. a Jehovah's witness would highly likely refuse a blood transfusion, even if the alternative was death).
The idea that we all have a "gendered soul" is similar in many ways to religious beliefs.
I would agree that it's helpful to have its own category though, given it links to a different protected characteristic in the EA (gender reassignment).
Also - and I find this very bizarre - there are some TW who say they don't have a gender identity, or a belief that they have a gendered soul that is female. So a separate category on the NHS systems makes sense all round, including for clinical care as it would prompt healthcare staff to ask about cross-sex hormone use and think about how this might affect test results when analysing them as part of a diagnostic process.

Edited for clarity

Why do you have to be a woman though? Why not just remove the sex parts you hate and be a gay male without a penis?

@BonfireLady
Also - and I find this very bizarre - there are some TW who say they don't have a gender identity, or a belief that they have a gendered soul that is female
👋yep, no belief in souls here! I've transitioned as a pragmatic treatment for gender dysphoria. I suppose one could call it a 'gender identity' but I don't tend to think about that stuff.

@tripleginandtonic
Why do you have to be a woman though? Why not just remove the sex parts you hate and be a gay male without a penis?
I'm a follower not a leader, I don't want to be the one carving out that space in society. If that was more of 'a thing' I'd happily sign up though. I just want a quiet life post transition.

Thank you for coming on here for this @VanishingVision - we get so many "drive by scoldings" from TW who just come and start a thread to tell us that we are mean and nasty but don't want to actually engage in rational conversation, so it's sometimes hard to remember that such people aren't actually representative of all.

It seems to me that the rational response to the SC's clarification of the existing law would be to campaign for more unisex spaces to be provided by default alongside single sex spaces. The "default" assumption on mumsnet is that the reason that this campaign won't happen is due to TW requiring to be specifically in a designated "women's space" rather than a unisex space either for the emotional effect of the "validation" or for the sexual thrill of being in a women's space, or for the rush/thrill/power trip of knowing that their presence is unwelcome. Whereas if someone "just wants to pee"/"just wants to get changed" a private single-occupancy space is fine.

I'd be particularly interested in your opinion, OP, as to how accurate this perception would be across the diversity of TW you know - what proportion would be satisfied with unisex facilities?

Is it okay, @VanishingVision , if I chip in once in a while?

@CraftandGlamour

" I am wondering why it wasn't enough to just accept being non-conforming to sex stereotypes."

In my case: because it would be non-conforming to the sex stereotypes of the wrong sex. Presenting as the most masculine woman to ever masculine would still be a lie.

Also: I presented as a tomboy throughout my childhood and youth, and that was a prison. That was when I was stuck in the tomboy stereotypes, when I couldn't experiment with my presentation, because I had to maintain as masculine a presentation as possible. Now that I present as a man, I am much freer to experiment, because I'm now playing with the male sex stereotypes. So for example, I can wear nail polish in almost all the colours of the rainbow, and I don't feel like I'm lying, because "men can wear nail polish too!"

I'd be interested to know any thoughts you may have as to why this political lobby want to destroy women's and gay right protections in law, have such contempt for women, and don't feel that women should be entitled to legal rights alongside their own.

As the SC judgment was necessary for the legal protections of women, lesbian and gay people AND women with trans identities, it seems a bit... peculiar... that the lobby wants to overturn it, and has no problem with the impact on women with trans identities. This would make it a man thing against all women of all identities and plain sexism rather than a TQ+ thing.

Thanks to both of you, it's an interesting thread. I also think that more people, especially women who've been abused and aggressively bullied for suggesting it, would be happy for the accomodations that @DuchessofReality suggested.

I imagine it would make @VanishingVision and @TroubledWatersTW lives a lot easier as well. It's so frustrating that an aggressive and angry bunch of activists have caused this. As well as their enablers, both men and women.

I find this interesting. For you it would be a lie to call yourself a woman. For me it would be a lie to call my son a woman. He can't accept that I can see him as I see him - I have to see him as "she" sees "herself" and use the language "she" expects. I have not been able to do that. There is a whole lot of confusion about who gets to decide whose language we use. Very little "live and let live" in practice; you seem to be an exception.

Thanks for your input! Agree that the terms have been confusing. I see your point and find it convincing!

And how is a transsexual different to transgender?

I already started in January. I've had a few rude comments from drunk guys at a gig and a few men saying 'wrong one love' but mostly I don't think men even notice.

I just had a big laugh at the thought of me trying to play men's rugby, I'd be crushed! I know you weren't suggesting I do, it was just a funny image that came into my head.

I don't know, I don't have a strong feeling towards being excluded in things anyway. I just try to navigate the world the best that I can.

No, I don't. I used to be very middle ground about it, I'm not a parent or a doctor so I really couldn't decide what's best for children so I used to think leave it to parents, drs and the kids to work together to know what to do. I never could have supported medical transition for very young children but at the time perhaps a teenager with severe dysphoria it could be explored.

Now I'm against it entirely until 18. Not just because I think it's much harder to know if it's the right thing for them, the effects of taking blockers/hormones at a young age but because a child could not comprehend that this is a lifelong thing and how it can affect things like relationships etc.

Thank you for posting. Thank you for supporting women’s rights e.g. the right to single sex spaces. I follow these boards because I can see women’s rights being eroded by a tiny percentage of men weaponising their trans status. However, I support TW like yourself who recognise biological reality and understand women are the biggest group who are silently and consistently marginalised in our society.

I guess the murder of Brianna Ghey, at the time I had been trying to involve myself more in the community and I went to a vigil in my town held for her.

That event deeply upset me but I was also really bothered by the behaviour of trans people I knew and from what I saw online but this was something that was building anyway i was frequently disagreeing with other trans people. My one close TW friend for some reason spoke at the vigil and went full blown TRA after that and disappeared up her own ass and I stopped speaking to her, funnily enough she's been called out for being a narcissist lately.

So I kind of 'left' the community and didn't really pay attention to any trans related media I noticed I was much happier than other trans people i knew because I wasn't involved or chronically online, most of my friends and crowd were just regular gays, lesbians and straight people. But because I wasn't influenced by the community I was open to things like GC also. Another year on, I started to really consume GC stuff and started to really believe that alot of predatory men were taking over the 'trans community' and I met one that fit this category entirely.

Not really a particular event but more a collection of personal circumstances. I was never really aware of the 'no debate'. Truthfully I was unaware that really was much of a 'debate' over it all.

The way I see it, I can request that people treat me as a man, but I cannot demand it. I can't demand it because it's an act of self-imposed cognitive dissonance, and as such it would be abusive of me to insist that people do it. I'm grateful if they choose to do it to please me, but if they don't, well of course it's their right!

I can only hope that with time, your son will gain in assurance in his trans identity and will not need external validation as much. That will be good for his relationship with you, but also for his own mental and emotional health and stability.