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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TW who supports the SC ruling - AMA

407 replies

VanishingVision · 16/05/2025 22:55

Hello! I was thinking of doing this post for a little while now as the previous posts doing this by the rather wonderful trans men here were really interesting but I didnt want to take up too much space here or take any attention away from much more important things here than what I have to say.

But I figured to just go for it before I have a big old break from the Internet for a while.

So like the title says, I'm a transwoman who accepts the SC ruling: ask me anything if you'd like to and I'll do my best to answer.

OP posts:
BlueJeansAndMoonbeams · 02/06/2025 17:25

JamieCannister · 02/06/2025 17:21

Do you have any evidence?

My guess would be that most "trans people" are very young and immature and intolerant, whether in a vulnerable or an aggressive kind of way.

My guess would be that most "decent and well-meaning" trans people are older and what some might call "true trans".... and are small in number.

I would also say that if someone who was "decent and well-meaning" there is a strong argument to be had that they would (1) keep their paraphilia private, if indeed they are an autogynephile or transvestic fetishists; (2) seek mental health treatment for the MH issues if they are dysphoric or have a multitude of MH issues like many who claim to be trans seem to have; and (3) do their best to avoid presenting in public as a grotesque and (IMHO) offensive parody of the opposite sex.

There's no need to attack. I'm not going to answer that because you're being aggressive.

ArabellaScott · 02/06/2025 17:31

That's not an aggressive post, BlueJeans. It's a perfectly politely phrased question.

BlueJeansAndMoonbeams · 02/06/2025 17:35

ArabellaScott · 02/06/2025 17:31

That's not an aggressive post, BlueJeans. It's a perfectly politely phrased question.

I politely disagree

potpourree · 02/06/2025 18:05

I find it hard to judge getting tone right on here, so BlueJeans, it would help me greatly if you could quote which bit is an attack, as I can't see it - is it simply 'do you have any evidence?'

I do agree with you that the loud and violent individuals who seem to delight in whipping up division are absolutely screwing up things for everyone else.

SheilaFentiman · 02/06/2025 18:15

It isn’t the question “do you have any evidence?”

It is the last paragraph of the post that is certainly not “politely phrased”.

ArabellaScott · 02/06/2025 18:24

It's just honest.

Whenever women are blunt about how they feel, without prioritising men's feelings, it's seen as impolite.

Men imitating women and claiming to be women is deeply offensive to many women. Just as Rachel Dolezal claiming to be black was offensive.

illinivich · 02/06/2025 18:39

People can be vulnerable and abusive to others at the same time. Also, we tolerate behaviour from our children that we shouldnt from anyone else.

The thing is, every person will have reasons why they or their children should be the exception - they are going through a lot, theyll grow out of it, they'll calm down their behaviour once settled, they arent making too big a demand of anyone else.

But meanwhile, as a society, we are all expecting to tolerate boundaries being erroded. Even if its just pressure to remember to call someones child 'they/them'. And its not one child, or one friends husband, its so many people all at once. Its never ending.

SheilaFentiman · 02/06/2025 18:57

@ArabellaScott I am GC, but IMO, it’s offensive- and a pp asked, so I replied.

This has been a polite and honest thread for the most part. I would prefer it wasn’t spoiled.

I have made my point - YMMV - so I shan’t respond on this again,

BlueJeansAndMoonbeams · 02/06/2025 19:10

ArabellaScott · 02/06/2025 18:24

It's just honest.

Whenever women are blunt about how they feel, without prioritising men's feelings, it's seen as impolite.

Men imitating women and claiming to be women is deeply offensive to many women. Just as Rachel Dolezal claiming to be black was offensive.

@JamieCannister is free to state their opinions. I am equally free to find them aggressive and unpleasant and not want to engage with them. I'm not going to respond any further to this.

JamieCannister · 02/06/2025 19:20

The only thing that I can see could be considered impolite or offensive is in this bit "do their best to avoid presenting in public as a grotesque and (IMHO) offensive parody of the opposite sex".

I apologize for the implication that trans people are a "grotesque parody". Whilst I am absolutely certain some could be fairly described as such it was completely wrong of me to make such a sweeping statement.

Bannedontherun · 02/06/2025 19:27

God here we go “you are being offensive” “attacking me” “aggressive”

bla bla bla

i love MN because i can read and disagree and be disagreed with, that to me is democratic debate.

On the subject of TW going about their lives not bothering anybody. Well if they are not how would we know.

All we know is WHO IS BOTHERSOME.

I have never shared this but here is my personal experience of TIM.

Lesbian only day down the then LGB cafe, with my mate who had just come out male in there claiming to be a long term woman, caused a big fat fuss circa 1994

TIM wanting to come to a women only hostel i worked at called themselves pre operative female. 6ft 2 clearly male in a dress circa 1995

Sought legal advice was referred to a TIM lawyer who turned out was only interested in my legal case because it was against my women’s only employer.

My issue was nothing to do with trans rights.

The local LGBTQ were represented on a sexual violence forums constant attempts to divert from women’s issues, despite the bloody data in front of their faces.

Two young TIMS in TK max following me around, despite no provocation from me, aping women. I wrote a poem on bluestocking pub about it.

Current customer who describes himself as TV, doesn’t understand about sex segregation (explained it to him)

Never met a TIM who was not in women’s faces one way or another.

ArabellaScott · 02/06/2025 19:40

JamieCannister · 02/06/2025 19:20

The only thing that I can see could be considered impolite or offensive is in this bit "do their best to avoid presenting in public as a grotesque and (IMHO) offensive parody of the opposite sex".

I apologize for the implication that trans people are a "grotesque parody". Whilst I am absolutely certain some could be fairly described as such it was completely wrong of me to make such a sweeping statement.

Of course some could be. Some men deliberately dress as grotesque parodies of women as part of their sissification fetish. They'll openly admit to it. I can find some illustrative quotes if need be.

It'd be daft to pretend AGP males don't exist on a thread about trans identifying males.

It doesnt mean all trans identifying males, but it's imperative women are allowed to talk about this. Without being chastised for being 'rude' or 'aggressive'.

SheilaFentiman · 02/06/2025 20:34

Thanks for your follow up post @JamieCannister

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 02/06/2025 21:50

BlueJeansAndMoonbeams · 02/06/2025 16:59

Would it improve your relationship with your child if you were to use their preferred pronouns, or is that something you feel you cannot do? I decided to but it's not easy.

I can't do it. The cognitive dissonance is too much for me, and I am not prepared to lie because someone else tells me I have to. I have tried to avoid using pronouns at all, but I get tied up in knots trying it reword it all and end up incoherent. I also have problems with the societal consequences of all the pretence that people have changed sex and can therefore enter spaces that are for the sex they claim to be.

Bannedontherun · 02/06/2025 23:01

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 02/06/2025 21:50

I can't do it. The cognitive dissonance is too much for me, and I am not prepared to lie because someone else tells me I have to. I have tried to avoid using pronouns at all, but I get tied up in knots trying it reword it all and end up incoherent. I also have problems with the societal consequences of all the pretence that people have changed sex and can therefore enter spaces that are for the sex they claim to be.

I am not in your situation it must be awful. I cannot be sure of this but i think i would be just saying no.

BlueJeansAndMoonbeams · 02/06/2025 23:37

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic it's unfortunate that the vocal minority have pushed the TWAW and The TMAM so hard as I'm sure not all trans people actually believe they have changed sex. I know my child doesn't and there have been several trans people on here who don't believe that. My child is using female facilities , he's been questioned a few times due to being bearded etc but accepts it as necessary and not a big deal. He was using the men's before but can now see it's not ok.
I see it a bit like going through the five stages of grief, I've been through them all but have got to a reasonable acceptance, more for my own peace of mind than anything. I can't keep stressing about this forever.

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 03/06/2025 07:41

@BlueJeansAndMoonbeams I dunno, "do you have evidence?" was my question too.

I'm quite old and in the old days there were "transvestites" and "transsexuals". There were far more transvestites than transsexuals, including a lot of heterosexual transvestites who were often fetishists.

Now that they're all called "trans" there are still several different kinds, and there are probably still roughly the same numbers of different kinds including large numbers of those heterosexual transvestites and fetishists. I used to have some TV and TS friends (all male). I didn't really know their familes. Reading the transwidows threads here made me re-evaulate what I thought about those TV and TS friends, including the transsexuals who I suppose would be as close to "true trans" as exist. I kind of wished I hadn't read the transwidows threads but as they say, once you see it you can't un-see it.

As for my own DC, well, my DC doesn't mean any harm to anyone either. That doesn't make it acceptable or safe for anyone including my DC if my DC is in women's spaces. I'm glad the SC has clarified this but given how negatively the judgment has been framed in the press and by activists who claim to support trans rights, I don't suppose that my DC is grateful. But as far as I can make out employers and service providers are required to provide suffficent unisex provision as well as separate men's and women's, and that seems like the best possible outcome.

TWAW/TWAM may not represent all "trans people" but I am not convinced that this is just a "vocal minority". You don't even have to believe TWAW to suppose that men (transwomen, nice harmless vulnerable transsexuals) should still be allowed to use women's facilities. It seems to me like a pretty substantial proportion of "trans people" and their supporters.

Helleofabore · 03/06/2025 08:51

I wonder about making a blanket statement about the majority of people with transgender identities being well meaning towards others. Can it be said that any person who expects (not just would like or appreciate but expects) anyone else to act as if their belief is material reality, including language changes, is well meaning with no intention of making life difficult for others? At home, at work, anywhere?

How many families have we seen mentioned, either by a family member or by someone observing, where family members are cut off if they don’t use the right pronouns? It would be great to know that the majority don’t have these expectations, but I am not sure I believe such a claim made currently. It would be an interesting study.

I suspect that there are lot of enforcers who are not transgender, but who enforce language and belief from what I have seen on MN. I wonder how much that group of people confuse the perception overall.

As an example, even parents who joined the protest about the Supreme Court judgement seemed confused as to what that day in London was for. It seemed like some just turned up in general support without understanding what they were supporting.

Yet some of those parents also decided that we on MN should be warned to be careful describing the protest as not peaceful based on the group who were the major focus, those who called for harm to women and grafittied statues.

illinivich · 03/06/2025 09:17

The thing about gender ideology is that it doesnt have one fixed reason to justify why TWAW/TWAM and the non binary stuff.

A very small group would say that sex change is possible, as in someone has actually changed sex and sex means what we all say it does. The majority would say that sex as we know it doesnt exist, or is irrelevant or changing a single sex characteristic is enough.

All of it wants to alter perceptions of sex. Its not about gender non conformity, its just using the word gender instead of sex.

There will be allies and young people who dont see this. They are seeing it as a modernised gender non conformity with changing pronouns and medication.

These groups don't deny sex exists, but are still actively stopping women highlighting the safeguarding issues and attacks on women's rights.

ArabellaScott · 03/06/2025 10:11

Power is at the root of all of it, and the whole subject needs to be seen through the lens of power dynamics.

The key factor that matters, for everyone, is that males have, overall, more power than women.

That covers historical power, cultural power, physical power, economic power. (Exceptions and anomalies, such as individual women who are very rich, or have political power, or men who are very powerless, do not disprove the overall picture of male/female power dynamics, which holds true worldwide and has done for century upon century. Only women have ever had the reproductive burden, which is part of what makes the threat of rape so potentially utterly life altering. Only women are affected by menstruation, pregnancy, birth, menopause, all of which are life-changing and life-affecting processes, including the potential of them. A woman is affected by the potential of pregnancy, menstruation, etc, even if she is not currently in that state.)

Within the category of male, there are males with less power than other males.

Women, as a category, still have less power than males, no matter where a male sits on the hierarchy of male power.

Some males feel marginalised because they have less power than other males. They may see 'becoming female' as a way to escape the power hierarchy/ranking among males, or they consider that if they have less power than other males they must ipso facto be female.

Some males find the power disparity is all mixed up with their sexuality. So 'debasing' themselves by acting 'as a woman' turns them on. This is where we see the grotesque parodies. 'Submission' is an exaggeration and thus subversion of the power dynamic.

Some females rail against their vulnerabilities and see 'becoming male' as a way to gain power and escape that vulnerability.

All the pleas to be kind to trans people are subtly suggesting that people who identify as trans are by nature less powerful than people who are not. In some ways this is true, as there has historically been prejudice and discrimination against people who are non-conforming. In other ways, not.

It doesn't mean that an adult male who feels victimised in some internal power struggle about his 'masculinity' being threatened is less powerful than a woman. It doesn't mean that Imane Khelif punching women in the face is fair. Or that Kate Dolatowski, undeniably marginalised and vulnerable, should be in a women's jail. Or that Eddie Izzard, who yes, has been the subject of ridicule for his clothing choices, is entitled to use women's toilets.

(I apologise for all the quote marks - often words are being used to mean something that is not quite as advertised, so I feel they need to be held in quotes. I would have done the same for 'kind' and other words but it gets a bit much.)

Anyway. I don't think any consideration of the subject can have any merit unless it includes examining the power dynamics at play, which are always built on the male/female hierarchy. It's inescapable.

Helleofabore · 03/06/2025 10:28

ArabellaScott · 03/06/2025 10:11

Power is at the root of all of it, and the whole subject needs to be seen through the lens of power dynamics.

The key factor that matters, for everyone, is that males have, overall, more power than women.

That covers historical power, cultural power, physical power, economic power. (Exceptions and anomalies, such as individual women who are very rich, or have political power, or men who are very powerless, do not disprove the overall picture of male/female power dynamics, which holds true worldwide and has done for century upon century. Only women have ever had the reproductive burden, which is part of what makes the threat of rape so potentially utterly life altering. Only women are affected by menstruation, pregnancy, birth, menopause, all of which are life-changing and life-affecting processes, including the potential of them. A woman is affected by the potential of pregnancy, menstruation, etc, even if she is not currently in that state.)

Within the category of male, there are males with less power than other males.

Women, as a category, still have less power than males, no matter where a male sits on the hierarchy of male power.

Some males feel marginalised because they have less power than other males. They may see 'becoming female' as a way to escape the power hierarchy/ranking among males, or they consider that if they have less power than other males they must ipso facto be female.

Some males find the power disparity is all mixed up with their sexuality. So 'debasing' themselves by acting 'as a woman' turns them on. This is where we see the grotesque parodies. 'Submission' is an exaggeration and thus subversion of the power dynamic.

Some females rail against their vulnerabilities and see 'becoming male' as a way to gain power and escape that vulnerability.

All the pleas to be kind to trans people are subtly suggesting that people who identify as trans are by nature less powerful than people who are not. In some ways this is true, as there has historically been prejudice and discrimination against people who are non-conforming. In other ways, not.

It doesn't mean that an adult male who feels victimised in some internal power struggle about his 'masculinity' being threatened is less powerful than a woman. It doesn't mean that Imane Khelif punching women in the face is fair. Or that Kate Dolatowski, undeniably marginalised and vulnerable, should be in a women's jail. Or that Eddie Izzard, who yes, has been the subject of ridicule for his clothing choices, is entitled to use women's toilets.

(I apologise for all the quote marks - often words are being used to mean something that is not quite as advertised, so I feel they need to be held in quotes. I would have done the same for 'kind' and other words but it gets a bit much.)

Anyway. I don't think any consideration of the subject can have any merit unless it includes examining the power dynamics at play, which are always built on the male/female hierarchy. It's inescapable.

Thank you for articulating that Arabella. It is very important to keep remembering this.

Bannedontherun · 03/06/2025 10:32

@ArabellaScott totally agree, that power we do have is our bodies and the potential to reproduce, breast feed, offer sex to men we like.

The reasons that TIMS want to invade our spaces is including the ridiculous notion of breast feeding support) is motivated by a need to steal what little power we have.

And males as part of the ruling class (not individual men) don’t have a problem with it because they do not care or do not recognise this.

And as for the handmaidens, they think sucking up to these men is a way of gaining some power.

BonfireLady · 03/06/2025 10:43

BlueJeansAndMoonbeams · 02/06/2025 23:37

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic it's unfortunate that the vocal minority have pushed the TWAW and The TMAM so hard as I'm sure not all trans people actually believe they have changed sex. I know my child doesn't and there have been several trans people on here who don't believe that. My child is using female facilities , he's been questioned a few times due to being bearded etc but accepts it as necessary and not a big deal. He was using the men's before but can now see it's not ok.
I see it a bit like going through the five stages of grief, I've been through them all but have got to a reasonable acceptance, more for my own peace of mind than anything. I can't keep stressing about this forever.

Edited

It sounds like you and your child have found a way to work through this together, which is fantastic.

He was using the men's before but can now see it's not ok.

This is interesting and shows the importance of different viewpoints coming together to figure this stuff out at a societal level. The law gives clarity on single-sex spaces which is a useful starting point. I do feel sympathy for transmen, given the "limbo" that some will feel in situations where they "pass" well enough that the law specifically allows for their exclusion from women's spaces too. Yes, they made their choice to look as much like a male as possible but that doesn't mean it'll be easy to live with the consequences of those choices. Obviously there are some transwomen who "pass" too. The third spaces discussion has been suppressed by TRAs but hopefully some of the more reasonable trans voices will start to break through, just as we're seeing on this thread.

I see it a bit like going through the five stages of grief, I've been through them all but have got to a reasonable acceptance, more for my own peace of mind than anything. I can't keep stressing about this forever.

Personally, I would not be able to use opposite-sex (or non-binary) pronouns for my daughter if she ever decided she wanted to transition as an adult.

When I started this my journey to understand gender identity and support my (then actively) gender-questioning daughter, I felt open to the idea that I may need to do so in the future. That I might need to reframe my thinking and accept "him" as my "son". At that time I was prepared to do this if it was the right thing for her and I focused my time on researching what the whole thing was all about - including here on MN.

I do still accept that as an adult she may transition - and yes, I would feel grief (hopefully through to acceptance) because of the significant health risks she would face if she took any medicalised steps. However, I am no longer prepared to alter my own reality if my daughter chooses a path which differs from it. She will always my daughter - in law, biology and objective fact - and I'm not going to say otherwise.

If I shared her belief that gender identity exists (I used to believe this) I would accommodate her belief by using the "correct" pronouns which relate to it - but I don't. However, I would like to hope that even in that scenario I would never have accommodated her expecting others to bend their own reality, either as an overt demand or through emotional blackmail. I'll never know either way because during my learning journey I realised I didn't believe we all have a gender identity. Even prior to this discovery about myself I would never have supported anyone enforcing their belief on someone else. There are many people who hold different beliefs who find a way to co-exist within society.

If this hypothetical situation becomes reality in the future, my concession would be that I'd a) refer to her as "my child" or "my daughter who identifies as a man", without judgement or affirmation b) stop using pronouns to describe her altogether - no she, they or he. I'd go through the mental gymnastics of complete pronoun removal when describing her (I appreciate this isn't easy - as per Rapid's comments - and I may find I can't do it because my brain gets muddled) c) I would accept other people using my child's preferred pronouns if that's what they wanted to do.

If those accommodations weren't good enough - there's a poster on page 6/7 of this thread saying that the only way to be a good parent is to actively use preferred pronouns - I'd reluctantly find a way to grieve and accept my child's decision to pull away from me. Right now though, I'm fighting as hard as I can to avoid such a scenario because the idea of it breaks my heart and keeps me awake at night. But what I won't do is bend my reality just to avoid it.

We all have different lines on this as parents and children. No one family's way is better or worse than another's if they can maintain a way to communicate with each other when there are differences of opinion on an (adult) child's transition.

ArabellaScott · 03/06/2025 10:51

totally agree, that power we do have is our bodies and the potential to reproduce, breast feed, offer sex to men we like.

Women have power from various sources and in various ways - not least, legally. Women have human rights just as men do, and that is no small thing. In the past century we've gained the right to vote, and laws like the Sex Discrimination Act etc have given women power. That has been the main point of legislation like the Equality Act - an attempt to redress the balance so that women could aim for an equitable place in society.

It's startling how recently all this legal power is/was won, though. And if we consider current events in that context it can be seen as attempts to remove all of those legal powers that have protected and supported women.

(one could also argue we have other powers that are perhaps more subtle and complex than basic 'might', like social powers, intellectual powers, perceptive powers, etc. But that's probably another discussion.)

BlueJeansAndMoonbeams · 03/06/2025 11:00

@MumOfYoungTransAdult I dunno ' do you have evidence ' was my question too.
And to all, I haven't done a study no, therefore I accept that my opinion is wrong.