TW who supports the SC ruling - AMA

[VanishingVision]

Hello! I was thinking of doing this post for a little while now as the previous posts doing this by the rather wonderful trans men here were really interesting but I didnt want to take up too much space here or take any attention away from much more important things here than what I have to say.

But I figured to just go for it before I have a big old break from the Internet for a while.

So like the title says, I'm a transwoman who accepts the SC ruling: ask me anything if you'd like to and I'll do my best to answer.

Can I ask something that may come across as insensitive? I am asking to try and understand how the dynamics of your family differs from my own and to see whether your sister has a different experience and why.

To offer some context, I am sure that my family would still say that they "love" me. Like yours, they have never supported my transition actively, refusing to accept my new name/pronouns/presentation despite the fact that it is really clear that transitioning made me demonstrably happier, healthier, and more comfortable in my own body than any other process or treatment I tried.

So I want to ask in what way you believe you treat your sister with love and whether she would agree with you that she is loved unconditionally by her family?

I think though that for a large section of the well-meaning public, when they hear "transwomen", that first line above is what they assume the vast majority of transwomen to be - harmless, just wanting to get on with their lives in peace, why wouldn't you give them your support - whereas as we know, that is not the case with many of the more aggressive types of TW.

Thank you @VanishingVision for this thread, and the other trans people who have commented. It's really appreciated and valuable to hear voices that aren't the aggressive shouting-down we so often experience, and understand your perspectives.

Well, I've been on hormones for years and have had some surgeries, I'm not gonna say which ones other than FFS because that's my business. Plus you know name change etc etc all the things. Unless you are aware of another way to transition?
I guess you could consider how I see it to be 'transmedicalist' but personally I don't consider having had GRS a requirement to be a transsexual as there could be medical reasons why somebody can't go under it, or simply just not wanting to put themselves through a potentially traumatic surgery. I consider the requirement simply as 'dysphoria that requires medical transition' as i don't see any other logical reason to do so.

I know what the ruling is about, but I'm stating why I accept it. Just in case you think I've gone full blown 'TERF' I absolutely understand trans people being worried and scared about it. I might accept it but it doesn't mean I also don't have some worries and doesn't mean I don't want to have empathy for everyone who could be affected by it.

I think moving on from that part is hard if you're online alot and involved in trans spaces, it's why alot of trans people are still like it after years, honestly had I been completely swallowed up by it I might be the same. Trans people seem to forget that not every single part of your life revolves about being trans.

I can understand, I think as we can forget it's acruslly hard on family too. It doesn't mean transitioning is bad or selfish but y'know if your mother gave birth to you and saw you as a son then that relationship is based on that. I've got lucky that my relationship with my mother especially is better, I had my little sensitive period but I got over it, we actually discovered how similiar we are as people (both very neurotic 🤣). But my relationship with her began by being mother and only son, I accepted that she would struggle with my choicee even if she does say she likes me much better now!

I really hope things get better for you all in this truly 🖤

Thank you for answering. I'll be honest that claims of any sort of community leader make me nervous! Instantly my mind thinks 'was there a meeting, a vote?'

Possibly comes from belonging to too many clubs and societies over the years.

I am glad you aren't claiming to speak for any one except yourself.

Right, then I guess what I am trying to understand is what in your mind does "dysphoria that doesn't require medical transition" look like? Take my friend, for example. She is transgender, is happy having socially transitioned and taking hormones but does not want to undergo GRS because she doesn't experience bottom dysphoria but does experience dysphoria because of other parts of her body feeling wrong. Is her dysphoria enough to consider her trans? What about an ex of mine who is non-binary and experiences dysphoria because their body is gendered, so does not want to take feminising hormones or undergo a surgery because that would just alter their body into a different gendered one? Their dysphoria presumably doesn't require medical transition to address but it would be baffling to me to say they aren't trans.

Ok so are you saying that you disagree with the decision reached but accept that it's the way a court decided on it, or are you going further and saying that you agree with the reasons they made the decision? If it's the latter, why? Regarding whether I believe you've gone full TERF or not, I don't think that's related to your opinion on the SC ruling. I think that the reason you might be struggling to have trans friends or get pushed out of trans spaces has less to do with your opinions on the SC and more because, as this thread has shown, you are willing to misgender other trans women. Other trans people may feel like I do, that you can't really be trusted to clear the minimum bar of recognising other people's gender expression as valid and treat it with respect and that's the reason you aren't made to feel welcome in that space.

My sibling was born and lived as a biological man for nearly 50 years. If we are talking together or he is present we all use his preferred new name and pronouns. It makes him happy, it's what he wants and it's important to him. And I would do that for another individual to.
If he'd changed religion, political affiliation or taken up a new hobby we'd also listen politely, show an interest, ask a few questions. But I don't think he'd expect us to affirm his new thing to the same degree as trans. I wouldn't expected to believe in a new god or take up cycling. I won't do the whole TWAW. I also think that it undermines the experience of trans people, I'm a hetro woman I've lived that life. Not the life of my gay friends in homophobic '70s family homes or teenagers in lockdown. I'm interested, thanks for the ama, but I can't join you.
If a friend behaved as my sibling has over the years, we'd have lost contact a long time ago. My sibling crops up every now and then, on their terms and is welcomed, positive memories shared, no obligations insisted on and then they disappear again. He calls in times of stress never to celebrate. He's often mean about things we achieve or value. Seems pretty unconditional compared to most of my friendships.

I dunno which approach I'd like less. Like on the one hand it'd be nice to have some acknowledgment and validation from my family, on the other I'd probably be much more hurt if I knew that it was totally insincere because of how I'm talked about behind my back. I wonder if she'd prefer the situation I find myself in. The behaviour you're describing from your sister is really similar to a lot of trans friends I had that ended up not interacting with their family anymore because they eventually decided their energy was better spent on people that actually love and care for them. I hope for the sake of your relationship with your sister that that doesn't happen to you but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

@ChirpyFinch

I wonder: how far do you go to "recognise other people's gender expression as valid and treat it with respect"? Does that cover, for example, the abusers of women and girls who declare themselves trans women in order to be put into women's prisons? If not, then where do you draw the line?

@ChirpyFinch well there you have it thinly disguised hostility because OP does not drum out the same twaddle, as you obviously believe.

OP cannot be a “TERF”, simply because in order to qualify for that insult one MUST be a biological woman.

The “TERF” club here, has a variety of views on the whole issue but don't cast people out or abuse them because there opinions vary.

I think it's pretty simple - I don't think that the crime of abuse happens because of the way someone identifies. I think they commit abuse because they are abusers. I have no problem with using preferred pronouns that they choose to have and still sending them to prison, or isolating them in prison if they pose a danger to others. I don't understand why I have to pick between using a different pronoun and still treating them like a criminal for having committed a crime? Why do you think that choice has to be made?

I'm not talking about which pronouns to use; that's almost anecdotic at this point. I'm talking about which prison to send them to. Should a male abuser be sent to a women's prison, full of female inmates and staffed by female people?

🙄the trans women are having a conversation honey, maybe don't decide for us whether there is hostility. I'm making a point that @VanishingVision's experience with the trans community is likely very different because of the way she engages about other people. I think it's notable that she doesn't want to be considered a TERF, because otherwise why openly tell me that they haven't gone full TERF?

But @TransSister and the rest of the family matter, too. It's not all about the feelings of the trans sibling.

No, because they're a male. I think that would go without saying.

"the trans women are having a conversation honey, maybe don't decide for us whether there is hostility."

Spoken like the aggressive type of trans women indeed.

Then you realise that you too are transphobic, right?

I mean, matter in what way? @TransSister and her family is clearly of the opinion that it would be cruel to misgender her sister to her face (so are already willing to accept whatever harm comes from them doing that - though I am not sure what it would be?), so what exactly changes when her sister is out of the room? It's also very clearly affecting the relationship between the sister and the family, which I think is pretty sad.

@ChirpyFinch <honey> ? What an awful way to respond. Show a bit of respect, an apology will suffice

How so? You asked me whether I think a male (so presumably someone who identifies as a man) should be put in a women's prison. No, obviously.

No, I asked you whether an abusive male who identifies as a woman should be put into a women's prison. Should he?

Chirpy is doing a derail best ignored now.

I assuming that what you're actually asking me is whether I think a trans woman should be sent to a female prison. Yes, I think that she should be. I also think that it's probably sensible to treat a rapist as a rapist while they are in prison and take precautions to prevent further crimes and abuse.

I think you can, and should, treat her like any other rapist or abuser in prison - whether that is isolation, or putting them in a higher security facility. I'd say the same about a cis woman who had committed similar crimes, or do you think that she shouldn't be in a women's prison?

I think there are different kinds of gender dysphoria, the kind a trans person has that requires transition is one, plus SA/rape survivors can also experience a form of GD and I think there's a kind of dysphoria that comes from not feeling like you fit into the social expectations of your sex/gender. Those last two would clearly not require medical transition would they? That would likely be therapy and teaching people to accept they don't have to conform to stereotypes.
Also you just said your friend has dysphoria and is taking hormones to change her sex characteristics. That is a form of medically transitioning is it not? If she's happy I wish her all the peace in the world, good for her. I wouldn't tell somebody they are/aren't trans because they didn't want a surgery, no surgery should be undertaken lightly and I would never tell somebody to go through one just because somebody else thinks you should, it should only be done for your own personal reasons. Do I think its a bit weird to not at least WANT GRS if you wish to be the opposite sex, but my experience is not everyone's and I would never claim to speak for everyone. Not everyone has the resources and availability for the same things. I have a close friend who is a trans man who hasnt started hormones yet, is likely some time away from it and I have literally zero problem with using their pronouns, etc. Everything is a personal choice in your own life.
As for your NB they're transgender by the mainstream definition of it but they aren't a transsexual, I wouldn't misgender them and I accept their experience but I wouldn't be able to relate to it much like every NB person I've met, their struggle is entirely different to TS people.

And there's a reason I make the distinction: your NB friend can go back at any time to their former life, change their clothes, grow their hair back (or cut it) etc etc. I can't go back EVER. Your TW friend can't. The part of the trans community affected by everything that's going on in the trans rights debacle the most is binary trans women and men. Is your NB friend affected if they ban medical transition (something a few people here are in favour of, obviously I am not)? No, but we are. Are they affected by what spaces trans people now have to use? I suspect they use the ones for their bio sex. Are they affected by documents being forcibly changed back potentially? I suspect not.
That's why I think the distinction is important, surely if you want to fight for trans rights you should be able to clearly define what it is. Most trans people can't actually explain themselves because they're armed with the magickal and vague language with by TRAs and the mainstream community.
I'm not some totalitarian keeper of the keys to the transsexual empire, I dont spend my time thinking about who and who isn't trans and telling people what to do online it's their business not mine. But i am allowed an opinion on the things that are beginning to directly affect me now.

I'm sorry but where have I misgendered somebody? I don't walk into trans spaces misgendering people, I'd be a hypocrite if I did that. I have a different viewpoint on trans issues, that's why I struggle with them but I do have some trans friends who don't see totally eye to eye with me but we agree and relate on some level.

As per the SC ruling I accept the reasons they came to it and everything thats lead to it, I think it's necessary to try and reset the clock and bring balance back again but that is probably me being naive. I don't know how I feel about how its going to play out in full at this point, honesrly it's still very fresh isn't it? There's still a thousand interpretations of everything out there.

"I think you can, and should, treat her like any other rapist or abuser in prison"

Other rapists and abusers are put in the prisons corresponding to their sex. So what you're saying is that she should be put into a men's prison.

"I'd say the same about a cis woman who had committed similar crimes, or do you think that she shouldn't be in a women's prison?"

Non-trans women are female, so of course they belong in women's prisons. But trans women are male, so they don't belong. That's the entire point.