Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

I expect that paraphilias/fetishes often involve a strong emotional 'charge' from some element of childhood, that becomes sexualised at puberty. Sometimes childhood trauma has an influence.

There are actually a lot of accounts of it from various cross dressing men, including Grayson Perry, who's written about it in his autobiog. Very often boys/men steal the clothes (often the underclothes) of their sisters and/or mothers. See Caitlyn Jenner.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/caitlyn-jenner-at-chicago-house-event/62376/

An adult trying on their child's clothes? Oooof. That's a whole other thing from a boy trying on his mother's clothes...

And how does a grown adult try on a 10yo girl's clothes anyway??

That's all kinds of wrong!! God, get your own clothes Kaitlyn!

This really isn't the heartwarming and amusing story he thinks it is...

I made a thread about men who steal women's underwear, a while back.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4812952-stealing-womens-underwear

Just awful, I read about Andrew Miller. That poor young girl must have been terrified.
I remember having some underwear and clothes stolen from my washing line once. There was an easy access to my back garden. Fortunately there isn't where I live now but I never hung my undies outside again. I don't think it occurred to me to report it but I was really upset about it at the time.

Yes, it's a deliberate act of transgression. I'm sorry that happened to you.

Thank you. On the thread you made there's a comment about women who find underwear and think their husband is having an affair. She says how unlikely it is that you'd just forget your underwear and she always thinks it's more likely the husband has stolen it! I'd never thought of that when I've seen those threads but it's a distinct possibility.

{insert queasy emoji here}

Double that 🤮🤮

I am only halfway through the thread, but I want to thank the participants, especially @Seethlaw , @TroubledWatersTW , @changedusernameforthis1 and @VanishingVision. It's been an education. Is there a Hall of Fame for best threads at Mumsnet? I'd nominate this one :-).

Wow, thank you, @Delphin 😊! I admit I wasn't expecting so much engagement. And I'm certainly very happy that so many people say they find this thread interesting or instructive. I too have been learning a lot, both directly from Mumsnetters and from sources they recommend, so thank you everyone!

I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this thread and feel I’ve learned a lot, from everyone. I would love to read a conversation-style book, discussing their experiences of being trans in the context of FWR between @Seethlaw , @VanishingVision and @TroubledWatersTW (and other contributors I don’t recall names of, sorry)

I think there are quite a few misconceptions around AGP. If people are interested 'Gender: A Wider Lens' had an episode interviewing Ray Blanchard who originally formulated AGP as a feature of some trans women (actually, the majority). I think the trouble is that the quick explanation "some men have a fetish about being women" evokes a strong negative reaction in just about everyone who hears it (trans and not)! It's not something a lot of people want to engage with or learn the finer points of, understandably!

I think a key misconception is that people with AGP can't also have gender dysphoria. That these people aren't trans; they just have a fetish. In reality, genuine GD and AGP are strongly correlated. I do wonder if it's partly just what happens to teenage boys experiencing GD as their sexuality develops. Particularly the shame aspect of not being a 'proper' man. Though some people claim to just have AGP and not GD and vice versa. It's not the sort of thing people like admitting though!

I'm not so sure of the whole wide theory of AGP, but certainly we've all encountered trans women online who squarely fit the bill! Particularly, it seems to well describe the motivations behind some cross dressers and men who invade women's spaces and perform illicit acts.

However, per Blanchard's formulation and definition of AGP, I would count as having anatomical AGP because I only experience arousal if I'm imagining e.g. having a boyfriend with me having a female body. I genuinely don't however experience any arousal as a result of cross dressing, entering women's spaces, performing 'feminine' activities, etc. Nevertheless in the original formulation, what I experience counts as AGP, which is what makes me slightly sceptical about that definition, but I don't make the rules! As I've mentioned up thread, I've also had gender dysphoria of the body dysmorphic kind since very young childhood.

For the interested, I think a very interesting resource on AGP is actually the subreddit /r/askagp. It's probably not what you'd expect! It's text-only and is almost entirely long discussion posts of people coming to terms with the fact that they have AGP and figuring out how to manage their lives from there. In many ways it is quite heartbreaking, people are generally quite distraught when they come to terms with the fact that they have AGP, and most desperately wish to be rid of it.

Regardless of the finer details of the definitions of AGP, I do think it's a shame that it has been so thoroughly suppressed by the trans movement. It's uncomfortable to admit, but right now there will be teenage boys starting to experience these feelings, and since it's never mentioned or discussed anywhere they can see, they end up feeling like freaks and hiding in shame. I certainly did; I couldn't work out why my arousal worked the way it did. Was I just a 'normal' gay male, or did it weirdly mean that I was somehow straight? Either way, it felt like something to be very ashamed of!

Anyway, sorry for the big derail tangent, it's something I've thought a lot about!

@PhoebesPony
If I'm really honest I'd happily send a daughter to school with a short haircut and typical boys clothes but if a son wanted to go wearing a dress and hair in a ponytail I would find that a bit difficult. It's wrong and I don't agree with myself haha 😂 but there it is.

Oh this actually happened to me apparently! So I don't remember, but mum says that when I was about 4 or 5 I apparently asked if I could have a pink set of duvet and pillow covers for my bed. She felt I would be bullied if other kids saw, so she said no! She felt like I might be unhappy with my current room so she ultimately instead redecorated my room into a masculine (and very cool!) space theme. I really don't remember any of this, but it's interesting in the context of thinking back on signs from childhood.

Boys liking pink is a definite sign that they like the colour pink.

@TroubledWatersTW

This is my thread, and I declare that your post was not at all a "big derail tangent", quite the contrary: anything that helps to better understand the various types of trans people is very welcome on this thread. So thank you for putting yourself out there!

I'm reading Dr Hakeem's "Trans" book, and I'm learning a lot - among other things, about AGP. And your post is very informative as well!

"I think a key misconception is that people with AGP can't also have gender dysphoria. That these people aren't trans; they just have a fetish. In reality, genuine GD and AGP are strongly correlated. "

Aha! Yeah, that makes sense. In fact, it seems logical, in a way, that someone who has gender dysphoria of a body dysmorphic type, would develop a sexual fixation on having the opposite sex body markers.

"Regardless of the finer details of the definitions of AGP, I do think it's a shame that it has been so thoroughly suppressed by the trans movement. It's uncomfortable to admit, but right now there will be teenage boys starting to experience these feelings, and since it's never mentioned or discussed anywhere they can see, they end up feeling like freaks and hiding in shame."

That makes me so sad and mad. People everywhere are obsessed with sex, but heavens forbid that we actually talk about it like reasonable adults, and teach kids not to be ashamed of themselves.

Thank you for speaking up and for bringing a new perspective on this!

Absolutely, and I certainly wouldn't be transitioning a child based on that as "evidence"!

But in my case I really did end up being attracted to men and having gender dysphoria. Perhaps there is some correlation, perhaps there isn't.

Just been catching up on this thread and wanted to offer my thanks to the OP @Seethlaw and others for a truly fascinating and insightful thread. I learned a great deal from it.

Wow thanks for all that information, it's so interesting and I will definitely look into the links you mentioned. I'm just about to go to bed, very tired lol, so I will reply more to you tomorrow. It would be so much better if people could be open about this, I do think the secrecy that is forced really onto boys/maybe girls too, not sure, just makes it so much worse for people with AGP. Its the stereotypes that we live with, both for males and females. It's much harder I think for boys to display any feminine traits than vice versa.
Just want to say to everyone on this thread, I know I've been a pain in parts of it and I apologise. I am genuine and wasn't trying to wind anyone up deliberately. I'm just really interested in the subject and freely admit that although I'm not completely thick I haven't worked through all my thoughts on the subject and tend to flip-flop and sometimes get confused and annoyed by things that don't seem to make sense to me. I still do think trans women have a tougher ride of it (don't jump on me!).but I can understand more of the reasons from women's perspectives I think. So, I'm sorry and I hope I didn't spoil the thread too much as it's been fascinating.

Yes, it's the gender based stereotypes they are largely at fault here. As a kid growing up un the 80s with a stay at home dad with Asd tendencies, who played with us, but cricket, we made bow and arrows, climbed trees, built dams in the local stream, science kits,, most of our projects were from a 1950s book of things for boys etc, we would have been transed these days.

Saying that, he also built a massive castle for my my little ponies.

Whereas I was just a tomboy who grew up into a teen that wore inappropriate clothing and make up, still loves cricket and football as an adult, and am happy as I am. Labelling does no one any good.

Sincere willingness to engage is always appreciated, Phoebe.

I second this

Perhaps the first level of AGP is "I get off imagining myself as a woman"

The next level is "I feel uncomfortable in my body because it gets in the way of getting off imagining myself as a woman".

I don't know for sure

I think that in the real world it is a bit of moot point - we can't tell who is gender dysphoric and we can't tell who is AGP, so we kind of have to treat them the same. But in an ideal world I would do the impossible and make it a serious criminal sexual offfence to take autogynephilia or transvestic fetishism public, and only allow gender dysphoric people to cross dress. I know this can't be done (and certainly not without authoritarian laws which are undesirable).

Why not bring up my other points on this thread if you want?

However, per Blanchard's formulation and definition of AGP, I would count as having anatomical AGP because I only experience arousal if I'm imagining e.g. having a boyfriend with me having a female body.

Interesting. I guess this is what's being depicted by Frank's character in White Lotus, if anyone is familiar with that?