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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I stuck my head above the parapet

322 replies

RedCrochetedWigFace · 16/05/2025 07:44

So I work for a smallish company but we have a few different branches throughout the country. I think each branch has a least one trans woman. I've no idea if we've any transmen. They don't make as much of a drama and noise if we do.

There is a staff group who are generally well meaning but they've started kicking off about how awful the supreme court ruling is blah blah blah. They are mostly women. I tried respectfully pointing out that no-one has lost any rights and that it's actually protecting women's rights.

I said that I want any trans people to feel comfortable at work and if that's not the case then action absolutely needs to be taken but that the supreme court judgement shouldn't make a difference to that. Someone said what about the "ugly women who look like men" who were dragged out of women's toilets. I said that was an awful thing to call a woman and misogynist. I was accused of avoiding the question. They said that the ruling meant that women who don't look/present as women will also suffer and seemed to think that undermined the argument that no ones rights were being negatively impacted.

I just reiterated that anyone feeling unsafe at work needs support regardless of gender/perceived gender or any other factor. I asked what the group wanted to achieve. They said they want trans people to feel safe at work. I dont think I hid my exasperation.

I'm pretty sure I was respectful throughout. I tried to be.

Now I have a meeting with my manager and HR on Tuesday. I have spoken with ACAS. It's not a formal meeting so I'm not allowed to take anyone in with me.

FFS.

OP posts:
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anyolddinosaur · 23/05/2025 12:32

Document the phone call. Email your record of the call to them. And definitely check any work policies/ anything they have put out about the SC judgement, that was all good advice.

BettyFilous · 23/05/2025 12:42

RedCrochetedWigFace · 23/05/2025 08:56

They haven't got back to me and I'm off until Wednesday now. My boss is off until after half term.

I sent them an email yesterday saying that I hadn't had an update since the phone call with HR, set out what was discussed/what I wanted to know and "looking forward" to hearing from them when I get back.

I've decided that it obviously isn't that bad or they'd be keen to get on with it? Maybe?

I've also decided that I'm not going to be passive about it. I didn't do anything wrong and I want them to show me if I did. If they want a meeting I'll give them a meeting. Roar! 😂 Hopefully my (respectful) assertiveness (even if VERY faked) will scare them a bit.

Do you think there’s a chance they’ve run it past someone more senior with a clue who has told them the potential liability they’re exposing your organisation to by pursuing this? There seems to be a distinct lack of urgency. If they do try to quietly drop it, I’d press for definitive closure in writing and then tell them how much unnecessary stress they have caused. Muppets.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/05/2025 13:49

INeedAPensieve · 23/05/2025 09:39

I love this, I'm going to requote it for whenever that vicious trans activist comes back to this thread. Tired of this. They need to grow up and stop denying reality and accusing women of blatant untruths to further their agenda.

It's derailed this thread as well.
Hope it's all going well @RedCrochetedWigFace

That was such a fantastic post wasn't it? And in stark contrast to the wailing and flailing seen from those determined that men must access women and girls undressing (which of course is what this always boils down to).

IwantToRetire · 23/05/2025 17:35

RedCrochetedWigFace · 23/05/2025 08:56

They haven't got back to me and I'm off until Wednesday now. My boss is off until after half term.

I sent them an email yesterday saying that I hadn't had an update since the phone call with HR, set out what was discussed/what I wanted to know and "looking forward" to hearing from them when I get back.

I've decided that it obviously isn't that bad or they'd be keen to get on with it? Maybe?

I've also decided that I'm not going to be passive about it. I didn't do anything wrong and I want them to show me if I did. If they want a meeting I'll give them a meeting. Roar! 😂 Hopefully my (respectful) assertiveness (even if VERY faked) will scare them a bit.

Just great. You seem to be able to remain calm and rational in the face of complete nonsense!

Hope you enjoy your time off work and just forget about them.

LesserCelandine · 24/05/2025 10:59

anyolddinosaur · 24/05/2025 08:45

You can now also draw their attention to the fund set up by JK Rowling that will increase the possibility of organisations being sued if they dont get this right. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5340841-jk-rowling-womens-fund?page=6&reply=144501838😁

I wouldn’t at this stage. You really really don’t want to be going to court unless you have to and mentioning the possibility ramps everything up. Even if you were thinking court you would want to underplay that now to keep them more relaxed and therefore more likely to put things in writing. At this stage it would be better to act as if they had simply overlooked their responsibilities/law and will be delighted to put it right when alerted to it, whilst getting it in writing in case it escalates.

Harassedevictee · 24/05/2025 11:58

A key factor a lot of people miss in cases like this is “reasonableness”.

Escalating before the meeting has been held can create a problem. For all we know the employer may be thinking - what do we do about the SC ruling?, well @RedCrochetedWigFace seems to have a grasp of what is going on let’s talk to her.

Enough4me · 24/05/2025 12:09

Harassedevictee · 24/05/2025 11:58

A key factor a lot of people miss in cases like this is “reasonableness”.

Escalating before the meeting has been held can create a problem. For all we know the employer may be thinking - what do we do about the SC ruling?, well @RedCrochetedWigFace seems to have a grasp of what is going on let’s talk to her.

I think this is unlikely but a good perspective to consider. When you go into the meeting you don't know what they think until you get it out of them.
What is their objective for the meeting?
They need to tell you this as they called the meeting. You don't have to say your thoughts, only answer coherently.
Be literal on what happened, women using women loos is normal. Make them squirm explain the tricky bits, "can you explain that a bit more?" , "I'm still not sure what you mean, is there something I'm missing?".
I'd avoid talking about sexuality or gender woo by saying "my sexuality is personal to me".

AnSolas · 24/05/2025 12:17

And
"What? HR have hired violent male staff? Who think its ok to bully other male staff out of the toilets? Do you HR think that is male staff being homophobic?" 🤷‍♀️

Harassedevictee · 24/05/2025 13:23

Enough4me · 24/05/2025 12:09

I think this is unlikely but a good perspective to consider. When you go into the meeting you don't know what they think until you get it out of them.
What is their objective for the meeting?
They need to tell you this as they called the meeting. You don't have to say your thoughts, only answer coherently.
Be literal on what happened, women using women loos is normal. Make them squirm explain the tricky bits, "can you explain that a bit more?" , "I'm still not sure what you mean, is there something I'm missing?".
I'd avoid talking about sexuality or gender woo by saying "my sexuality is personal to me".

I agree unlikely but the op appears to be pragmatic which is good.

There can be a tendency on some threads of posters encouraging a more extreme response hence my post pointing out that no one knows what HR want to talk about.

WallaceinAnderland · 29/05/2025 17:14

Have you heard anything more about it this week @RedCrochetedWigFace ?

Gundogday · 04/06/2025 07:38

How is all going? @RedCrochetedWigFace

RedCrochetedWigFace · 04/06/2025 13:51

Sorry. I will update ASAP. Thanks for checking in and all the support.

OP posts:
AndrogynousElf · 06/06/2025 13:23

Have you heard anything yet?

RedCrochetedWigFace · 09/06/2025 09:37

Hi. Im so sorry for ghosting you all.

Everything has kicked off but in a good way I think.

My manager has gone off on long term sick with no return date. I doubt it has anything to do with this.

My new manager is quite high up and told me that he thinks all of it is bollocks and he'll make it go away. His words. That has concerned me because it means there was something to make go away. I was a bit too shocked to think to ask for more information though.

An email was sent round on Friday from the senior HR rep saying that they are reviewing the SC hearing and what it means but in the meantime, the radar key on all disabled toilets will be turned off (they were anyway) and they will set up "gender neutral" showers. As I think Ive said before the showers are in individual rooms so they are all gender neutral anyway so I think this just means sticking a sign on a couple of the doors. However they didnt say that trans people couldnt use their preferred toilets. They also reminded people of the various break out rooms people can use if they need some private time. They sent a list of LGBT+ support groups and staff groups. I think that pissed me off because they didnt mention any other groups. But then, I wondered whether I was falling into the "but what about the poor straight white male?!" way of thinking which isnt helpful.

I then found out that a women's group has been set up as a "single sex safe space" and they have a proper terms of reference etc with "biological women" in their membership t&c. Some of the members are from the disbanded pcos group. I spoke to someone and they said they have support from senior male leaders but that they can only be open to biological women for obvious reasons ie no "allies". She said that as they identify as a single sex group they can do this. I don't know but I hope so! Its being kept a little quiet at the moment eg not mentioned on the intranet or on the staff committee notice boards so I think it is testing the waters. It isnt a big group and there werent any senior female members that I recognised which isnt great and thinking about the way she said about support from male leaders made me wonder / worry about bit about where the senior women are.

I will give it a week and then send an email to my new manager checking that no action is being taken. I need to word it so it doesnt seem like I thought there should be.

Ive joined the women group. The woman I spoke to said she thought Id want to but I don't know her so Ive obviously been getting gossiped about. That isnt great.

Anyway, all positive I think but I need to keep my head down for a while because obviously I was in trouble. Id love to be able to shout screw it and be one of the brave women who are calling it out and standing up to be counted but I just cant. I have a family I need to support as a newly single parent. I just cant risk this. I feel crap and selfish and scared. I will however actively support that group.

I think my place of work is moving in the right direction but I don't know what that means for the other arms or how what they do will affect us.

Thank you so much for your support and advice.

I wont be giving any more updates on this name as Im aware that what Ive said is all VERY outing and I don't want to make any other clear links. I do really appreciate you all.

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 09/06/2025 10:05

Just as a precaution, be careful what you say in that informal private group. The fact they aren't official and are calling it a 'safe space' is a bit of an amber flag.

RedCrochetedWigFace · 09/06/2025 10:14

Thelnebriati · 09/06/2025 10:05

Just as a precaution, be careful what you say in that informal private group. The fact they aren't official and are calling it a 'safe space' is a bit of an amber flag.

Im not planning on saying ANYTHING trans related! 🤣

OP posts:
Manderleyagain · 09/06/2025 11:31

This all sounds really positive OP. Careful and tentative but positive. Thanks for the update.

I hope you get some kind of official closing of the 'come for an informal chat with hr' process. It's not right or fair if that's still informally hanging over you. But the wider movement is obviously in the right direction.

IwantToRetire · 09/06/2025 18:21

RedCrochetedWigFace · 09/06/2025 09:37

Hi. Im so sorry for ghosting you all.

Everything has kicked off but in a good way I think.

My manager has gone off on long term sick with no return date. I doubt it has anything to do with this.

My new manager is quite high up and told me that he thinks all of it is bollocks and he'll make it go away. His words. That has concerned me because it means there was something to make go away. I was a bit too shocked to think to ask for more information though.

An email was sent round on Friday from the senior HR rep saying that they are reviewing the SC hearing and what it means but in the meantime, the radar key on all disabled toilets will be turned off (they were anyway) and they will set up "gender neutral" showers. As I think Ive said before the showers are in individual rooms so they are all gender neutral anyway so I think this just means sticking a sign on a couple of the doors. However they didnt say that trans people couldnt use their preferred toilets. They also reminded people of the various break out rooms people can use if they need some private time. They sent a list of LGBT+ support groups and staff groups. I think that pissed me off because they didnt mention any other groups. But then, I wondered whether I was falling into the "but what about the poor straight white male?!" way of thinking which isnt helpful.

I then found out that a women's group has been set up as a "single sex safe space" and they have a proper terms of reference etc with "biological women" in their membership t&c. Some of the members are from the disbanded pcos group. I spoke to someone and they said they have support from senior male leaders but that they can only be open to biological women for obvious reasons ie no "allies". She said that as they identify as a single sex group they can do this. I don't know but I hope so! Its being kept a little quiet at the moment eg not mentioned on the intranet or on the staff committee notice boards so I think it is testing the waters. It isnt a big group and there werent any senior female members that I recognised which isnt great and thinking about the way she said about support from male leaders made me wonder / worry about bit about where the senior women are.

I will give it a week and then send an email to my new manager checking that no action is being taken. I need to word it so it doesnt seem like I thought there should be.

Ive joined the women group. The woman I spoke to said she thought Id want to but I don't know her so Ive obviously been getting gossiped about. That isnt great.

Anyway, all positive I think but I need to keep my head down for a while because obviously I was in trouble. Id love to be able to shout screw it and be one of the brave women who are calling it out and standing up to be counted but I just cant. I have a family I need to support as a newly single parent. I just cant risk this. I feel crap and selfish and scared. I will however actively support that group.

I think my place of work is moving in the right direction but I don't know what that means for the other arms or how what they do will affect us.

Thank you so much for your support and advice.

I wont be giving any more updates on this name as Im aware that what Ive said is all VERY outing and I don't want to make any other clear links. I do really appreciate you all.

Edited

Thanks for taking the time to update us.

Glad to hear it is moving in the right direction, if not for the right reasons.

But it does show that at least some in the higher levels of management aren't totally transed.

Although it seems they feel they cant be too open about it!

I hope the women's group goes well. Just to have a place to talk with each other seems positive.

So well done you for keeping your head! And if not a totally victory a positive step which I am sure you helped create.

AndrogynousElf · 09/06/2025 19:14

It does sound positive. But I also understand that you don’t want to rock the boat too much and that you need the income.

Enough4me · 09/06/2025 23:51

You haven't said anything that is wrong (discriminatory). Meanwhile, they have to be careful and only know you are braver than most in openly saying the truth.
They will be busy reviewing the hearing and I wouldn't expect they'll want to stir anything with you and the women's group you've joined. Safety in numbers!

Mmmnotsure · 10/06/2025 01:08

Good luck with navigating this from now on.

You need to keep your job, so that's the first thing. That is not selfish. You have done what you can, now most of all, you need to protect yourself in this situation. To which end, please remember that for now at least, the only safe way to act and speak is on the principle that no one at work is your friend. The Supreme Court judgement will take some time to work its way through, and at the moment there are lots of toys being thrown out of prams. Keep your head down, as you say - watchful waiting. I hope the situation at home isn't too stressful on top of all this (or perhaps it's the other way round).

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