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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I stuck my head above the parapet

322 replies

RedCrochetedWigFace · 16/05/2025 07:44

So I work for a smallish company but we have a few different branches throughout the country. I think each branch has a least one trans woman. I've no idea if we've any transmen. They don't make as much of a drama and noise if we do.

There is a staff group who are generally well meaning but they've started kicking off about how awful the supreme court ruling is blah blah blah. They are mostly women. I tried respectfully pointing out that no-one has lost any rights and that it's actually protecting women's rights.

I said that I want any trans people to feel comfortable at work and if that's not the case then action absolutely needs to be taken but that the supreme court judgement shouldn't make a difference to that. Someone said what about the "ugly women who look like men" who were dragged out of women's toilets. I said that was an awful thing to call a woman and misogynist. I was accused of avoiding the question. They said that the ruling meant that women who don't look/present as women will also suffer and seemed to think that undermined the argument that no ones rights were being negatively impacted.

I just reiterated that anyone feeling unsafe at work needs support regardless of gender/perceived gender or any other factor. I asked what the group wanted to achieve. They said they want trans people to feel safe at work. I dont think I hid my exasperation.

I'm pretty sure I was respectful throughout. I tried to be.

Now I have a meeting with my manager and HR on Tuesday. I have spoken with ACAS. It's not a formal meeting so I'm not allowed to take anyone in with me.

FFS.

OP posts:
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GenderRealistBloke · 20/05/2025 13:49

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 19:59

The Venn diagram of racists, transphobes, Zionists, anti-immigrants and right wing evangelical christofascists is a circle.

Cut the crap. You're not feminists. How can you be feminists when your feminism is not intersectional?

You're transphobes.

You think all Zionists are Christian? Have you spent much time thinking your views through?

April1625 · 20/05/2025 14:40

Grey rock 🪨 the derail.

Good luck today OP, you're already courageous so this will be straight forward.

ANameChangePresents · 20/05/2025 16:08

Oh. My guess is that the employer is Lush.

RedCrochetedWigFace · 20/05/2025 16:11

Thank you for all the support.
My manager is off sick today. I don't know why or when he'll be back. Man from HR called me and wanted the meeting to go ahead with 2 HR people.
I refused to do that as 2 HR and me seemed unfair and a dodgy power balance. Makes me more concerned about the seriousness of it though.
I also asked that they email me the purpose of the meeting and what they want to achieve. I know but I want it in writing.
I asked to have someone with me again and if not I said I want that in writing too. I spoke to someone who used to manage me and she is willing to go with me if she can.
He's going to get back to me "sometime this week".
I'm normally a fairly laid back person who'll just go with the flow but this has really pissed me off. I don't think he expected me to be quite so assertive about what I want to happen.* *I was shaking when I came off the phone so it's a good job he didn't see me.
Sadly I need to be realistic and if it's a case of keeping quiet to avoid issues with my job then that is what I'll have to do.

Fucking delusional men.

Just to add - the notes from the meeting have been circulated and they are actually fairly representative of what happened so I'm pleased (and surprised) with that.

OP posts:
myplace · 20/05/2025 16:14

RedCrochetedWigFace · 20/05/2025 16:11

Thank you for all the support.
My manager is off sick today. I don't know why or when he'll be back. Man from HR called me and wanted the meeting to go ahead with 2 HR people.
I refused to do that as 2 HR and me seemed unfair and a dodgy power balance. Makes me more concerned about the seriousness of it though.
I also asked that they email me the purpose of the meeting and what they want to achieve. I know but I want it in writing.
I asked to have someone with me again and if not I said I want that in writing too. I spoke to someone who used to manage me and she is willing to go with me if she can.
He's going to get back to me "sometime this week".
I'm normally a fairly laid back person who'll just go with the flow but this has really pissed me off. I don't think he expected me to be quite so assertive about what I want to happen.* *I was shaking when I came off the phone so it's a good job he didn't see me.
Sadly I need to be realistic and if it's a case of keeping quiet to avoid issues with my job then that is what I'll have to do.

Fucking delusional men.

Just to add - the notes from the meeting have been circulated and they are actually fairly representative of what happened so I'm pleased (and surprised) with that.

Edited

Well done!

You too can go off sick.

And they have to find something you have actually done to complain about. Something which isn’t simply agreeing with the law as represented by the SC.

LittleBitofBread · 20/05/2025 16:17

myplace · 20/05/2025 16:14

Well done!

You too can go off sick.

And they have to find something you have actually done to complain about. Something which isn’t simply agreeing with the law as represented by the SC.

Good for you, OP. I agree, I think they wanted you to just turn up on your own and be meek.

RedCrochetedWigFace · 20/05/2025 16:17

myplace · 20/05/2025 16:14

Well done!

You too can go off sick.

And they have to find something you have actually done to complain about. Something which isn’t simply agreeing with the law as represented by the SC.

I think the meeting notes will go a long way to showing that. I don't know the person who took them very well but I hope she doesn't get dragged into this. Whatever "this" turns out to be.

OP posts:
Mumofoneandone · 20/05/2025 16:20

RedCrochetedWigFace · 20/05/2025 16:17

I think the meeting notes will go a long way to showing that. I don't know the person who took them very well but I hope she doesn't get dragged into this. Whatever "this" turns out to be.

Edited

You are absolutely entitled to take someone into the meeting with you. Don't let them fob you off. Well done for standing up for yourself!

rebmacesrevda · 20/05/2025 16:24

The process is the punishment...

ArabellaScott · 20/05/2025 16:24

Well done, OP. That took courage. And you've done exactly the right stuff, asking for clarification and in writing.

It does sound a bit odd they want it to be 'informal' but have two HR people there. How did they work that out?

They can't have it both ways - either they have a formal process, and put everything clearly in writing, and allow you to have someone with you, or there's really nothing more they can do, I would think.

RedCrochetedWigFace · 20/05/2025 16:26

rebmacesrevda · 20/05/2025 16:24

The process is the punishment...

People keep saying that but I don't understand.

Does it mean that the idea of being dragged through HR, having to stick up for yourself etc is enough of a deterrent to stop people doing something?

Sorry if that's a stupid question.

OP posts:
DontStopMe · 20/05/2025 16:31

That is exactly it, OP. Do you think your manager is deliberately avoiding this meeting?

murasaki · 20/05/2025 16:33

RedCrochetedWigFace · 20/05/2025 16:26

People keep saying that but I don't understand.

Does it mean that the idea of being dragged through HR, having to stick up for yourself etc is enough of a deterrent to stop people doing something?

Sorry if that's a stupid question.

Yes, exactly that. That the process is so painful that even if you are vindicated you suffer. So people back down.

You stood up for yourself really well.

rebmacesrevda · 20/05/2025 16:40

@RedCrochetedWigFace

Not stupid at all, OP.

Yes, people (typically women) who stand up get dragged along for years, sometimes without even being told what they've done "wrong". You've done nothing wrong at all, but your employers probably don't want you to do it again. I also wonder whether your manager is avoiding the meeting, and in my opinion, 2 HR people for an "informal" meeting sounds like an ambush!

I think you handled it really well. If you've not already, have a look at Free Speech Union. Hopefully you won't need them but I think it's good to know they're there.

AnSolas · 20/05/2025 16:43

RedCrochetedWigFace · 20/05/2025 16:17

I think the meeting notes will go a long way to showing that. I don't know the person who took them very well but I hope she doesn't get dragged into this. Whatever "this" turns out to be.

Edited

Print a hardcopy of both the notes and email if thats how they were circulated or screenshot the folder and date and location stamp your printout via the advance print option

The only way she gets "dragged" into it is if people at the meeting say that the meeting note is not an accurate reflection of what happened and request amendments.

If possible you should not bring up the meeting notes directly in any of your meetings with HR. I have been the note taker and would expect a person to contact me quite soon after they were sent them to ask for amendments or additions. The longer they stay in the unchallanged state the more problems they create for HR as they are an independent internal record.

If needed go with from my memory /notes X said Y or something to that effect.

And I would print out the disciplinary policy and procedure.

Good luck

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/05/2025 16:56

Well done for being assertive and not being ambushed by HR. The guidance from Irwin Mitchellabout the Supreme Court judgment was linked upthread and if you haven't had a look, it may be useful.
One thing that's worth doing is checking if your organisation issued one of those hostage letters: "we stand with the trans community in the face of the horrid Supreme Court etc. IF they did, then make a copy. The legal advice was that down the line, if anyone was putting in a claim for discrimination this showed bad faith / inbuilt bias on the part of their employer. Not saying that you need to go down that routs, but it's worth having it as back up if there's any question of you being badly treated.

Hope this is resolved in your favour speedily Flowers

Mmmnotsure · 20/05/2025 17:09

Paper trail.

Email the HR man back with a summary of the phone call, what was said and what he said he would do.

[Been there, done that, t-shirt etc.]

Everything in writing. Even saying in writing that you have asked for this in writing. And sent, therefore timestamped. If it's something that you can't send to someone else, email it to yourself so at least you have notes that you can show are contemporaneous. You might - might not - be amazed at how bad some people are at keeping notes. It will help you to be the one to have the information - a full account, date by date, of what happened, where and how, and who said what to whom.

Understand you need to keep your job. That's the first thing - to protect yourself. We can only fight as far as is safe for each of us (which is why so many people in this are older, retired women). Your email doesn't have to be pointed, and it's better that it isn't. Just a calm, measured request to ensure that you have understood the situation and what he was saying, and to be informed in writing so that you can be clear about it all.

Good luck.

RedCrochetedWigFace · 20/05/2025 17:39

Mmmnotsure · 20/05/2025 17:09

Paper trail.

Email the HR man back with a summary of the phone call, what was said and what he said he would do.

[Been there, done that, t-shirt etc.]

Everything in writing. Even saying in writing that you have asked for this in writing. And sent, therefore timestamped. If it's something that you can't send to someone else, email it to yourself so at least you have notes that you can show are contemporaneous. You might - might not - be amazed at how bad some people are at keeping notes. It will help you to be the one to have the information - a full account, date by date, of what happened, where and how, and who said what to whom.

Understand you need to keep your job. That's the first thing - to protect yourself. We can only fight as far as is safe for each of us (which is why so many people in this are older, retired women). Your email doesn't have to be pointed, and it's better that it isn't. Just a calm, measured request to ensure that you have understood the situation and what he was saying, and to be informed in writing so that you can be clear about it all.

Good luck.

Yes, good point with following up on everything with emails.
I'll be perfectly pleasant but it will be obvious what I'm doing which will hopefully make them consider what they are doing and why.

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 20/05/2025 17:52

Yes, good point with following up on everything with emails.
I'll be perfectly pleasant but it will be obvious what I'm doing which will hopefully make them consider what they are doing and why.

Mainly posting to say well done!

How strange that on the day booked to meet your manager they go off sick. Were they in work yesterday?

And somehow 2 members of HR can be made available at short notice?

The could easily have rescheduled.

So after taking a deep breath and patting yourself on the back, does seem that a paper trail is going to be essential.

Not just for them, but for you, if there are going to be last minute changes and so on.

Flowers
IwantToRetire · 20/05/2025 17:57

the notes from the meeting have been circulated and they are actually fairly representative of what happened so I'm pleased (and surprised) with that.

Sorry as i know you have enough to cope with at the moment, but is this the meeting at which everything blew up?

In which case great.

But also worth keeping this version because if as PP says others who were also there can say can you change this bit, you need to be wary that it could be subtle changed.

I dont know the procedure for something like this, but is it worth just acknowledging receiving them and saying seems a good write up?

LittleBitofBread · 20/05/2025 18:13

ArabellaScott · 20/05/2025 16:24

Well done, OP. That took courage. And you've done exactly the right stuff, asking for clarification and in writing.

It does sound a bit odd they want it to be 'informal' but have two HR people there. How did they work that out?

They can't have it both ways - either they have a formal process, and put everything clearly in writing, and allow you to have someone with you, or there's really nothing more they can do, I would think.

It does sound a bit odd they want it to be 'informal' but have two HR people there. How did they work that out?
Very good point. I'd ask (in writing!) how they define informal. And/or ask them to point you to the part of the company/HR policy that defines informal and formal.

Mmmnotsure · 20/05/2025 18:24

Good points about the policy. It's very useful if people in the company, esp HR, are not following their own policy. Make sure you are familiar with each step of the policy process and what the words which describe the various stages/meetings actually mean in context.

Worth making sure you mention in your email that you understand this initial meeting was to be with two HR people but without your manager or anyone else from your department (or whatever the set up).

Gundogday · 23/05/2025 08:45

Just pnacenarking to catch up later.

RedCrochetedWigFace · 23/05/2025 08:56

They haven't got back to me and I'm off until Wednesday now. My boss is off until after half term.

I sent them an email yesterday saying that I hadn't had an update since the phone call with HR, set out what was discussed/what I wanted to know and "looking forward" to hearing from them when I get back.

I've decided that it obviously isn't that bad or they'd be keen to get on with it? Maybe?

I've also decided that I'm not going to be passive about it. I didn't do anything wrong and I want them to show me if I did. If they want a meeting I'll give them a meeting. Roar! 😂 Hopefully my (respectful) assertiveness (even if VERY faked) will scare them a bit.

OP posts:
INeedAPensieve · 23/05/2025 09:39

CakeBlanchett · 18/05/2025 06:31

The claim that biological sex is so complex that people who insist on material reality are transphobes is an exercise in intellectual dishonesty. Biological sex is not a vague concept—it is a clear, well-established aspect of human biology determined at conception and expressed through a binary system: male and female. This binary is grounded in anisogamy, the fundamental difference between the two types of gametes in sexually reproducing species—large, immobile eggs produced by females, and small, mobile sperm produced by males. This definition is not up for debate; it is the foundation of sexual reproduction.

From the moment of conception, the chromosomal makeup (XX for females, XY for males) directs a cascade of developmental processes that differentiate the sexes. Embryos initially have both Müllerian and Wolffian ducts, which are precursor structures for the reproductive system. In typical female development (XX), the Müllerian ducts develop into the uterus, fallopian tubes, and upper vagina, while the Wolffian ducts degenerate. In typical male development (XY), the presence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome triggers testes formation, which secrete hormones that cause the Wolffian ducts to develop into the epididymis, vas deferens, and seminal vesicles, while the Müllerian ducts degenerate. These are not arbitrary or socially constructed pathways—they are the direct result of genetic instructions shaped by millions of years of evolution.

The existence of Disorders of Sex Development (DSDs) does not negate this binary—it reinforces it. DSDs are rare conditions where normal sexual development is disrupted, but even here, affected individuals are still recognisably male or female. For instance, Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) affects individuals with XY chromosomes (male) who cannot respond to androgens properly, leading to a female-appearing body. This is a case of a male (XY) with an atypical presentation—it is not a third sex.

Similarly, Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) is a condition affecting XX individuals (female) where excess androgen exposure can cause masculinised genitalia, but the individual remains female because they are biologically structured to produce eggs.

Claiming that these rare conditions “prove” sex is a spectrum is like claiming that the existence of people born with six fingers means humans do not have ten fingers. DSDs are exceptions within the binary, not evidence against it. The attempt to portray biological sex as “too complex” to define is not a scientific argument—it is an ideological strategy. It is designed to blur the clear, material reality of sex in order to undermine women’s ability to speak about the sex-based oppression they face.

This brings us to the laughable falsehood that the Taliban’s brutal misogyny is somehow disconnected from biological sex. The Taliban’s oppressive rules—forcing women to cover up, restricting their movement, denying them education—are not random cultural quirks. They are systemic methods of controlling female bodies and their reproductive capacity. Women are oppressed because of their sex—their biological role in reproduction—and this is a constant in patriarchal societies worldwide. Biological sex is the very foundation of why women are targeted for control, abuse, and subordination. Denying this is not just ignorance—it is a betrayal of women who suffer because of it.

And the claim that recognising this connection is “racist” is nothing but a bad-faith tactic to silence debate. Criticising the Taliban’s medieval treatment of women is not racism—it is a moral obligation. But calling women “racist” for daring to speak about sex-based oppression is a vile attempt to shame them into silence. In reality, the only bigotry on display here is the deep misogyny of those who would rather defend an authoritarian, woman-hating regime than admit the biological reality of sex. (And yes, I personally know women who actually worked in REWA and similar, at great risk to their lives.)

Finally, the cheap, sneering question, “Why are transphobes always racist?” is a textbook example of smear tactics. It is a lazy ad hominem meant to poison the well and avoid engaging with the argument. But it is also deeply ironic—because the people pushing this view are the ones perpetuating ideological colonisation by denying women worldwide the right to name their own oppression.
Denying the binary nature of sex is not a mark of progress—it is a rejection of basic biology, an erasure of women’s material reality, and a retreat into ideological fantasy. It is not the feminists who are spreading hatred—it is those who would rather gaslight women than allow them to speak the truth.

I love this, I'm going to requote it for whenever that vicious trans activist comes back to this thread. Tired of this. They need to grow up and stop denying reality and accusing women of blatant untruths to further their agenda.

It's derailed this thread as well.
Hope it's all going well @RedCrochetedWigFace