I stuck my head above the parapet

[RedCrochetedWigFace]

So I work for a smallish company but we have a few different branches throughout the country. I think each branch has a least one trans woman. I've no idea if we've any transmen. They don't make as much of a drama and noise if we do.

There is a staff group who are generally well meaning but they've started kicking off about how awful the supreme court ruling is blah blah blah. They are mostly women. I tried respectfully pointing out that no-one has lost any rights and that it's actually protecting women's rights.

I said that I want any trans people to feel comfortable at work and if that's not the case then action absolutely needs to be taken but that the supreme court judgement shouldn't make a difference to that. Someone said what about the "ugly women who look like men" who were dragged out of women's toilets. I said that was an awful thing to call a woman and misogynist. I was accused of avoiding the question. They said that the ruling meant that women who don't look/present as women will also suffer and seemed to think that undermined the argument that no ones rights were being negatively impacted.

I just reiterated that anyone feeling unsafe at work needs support regardless of gender/perceived gender or any other factor. I asked what the group wanted to achieve. They said they want trans people to feel safe at work. I dont think I hid my exasperation.

I'm pretty sure I was respectful throughout. I tried to be.

Now I have a meeting with my manager and HR on Tuesday. I have spoken with ACAS. It's not a formal meeting so I'm not allowed to take anyone in with me.

FFS.

Please contact the Free Speech Union today. £60 to join and you can immediately ask for assistance. They are very experienced in these sorts of things.

‘Someone said what about the "ugly women who look like men" who were dragged out of women's toilets. I said that was an awful thing to call a woman and misogynist. I was accused of avoiding the question. They said that the ruling meant that women who don't look/present as women will also suffer and seemed to think that undermined the argument that no ones rights were being negatively impacted.’

Everyone ‘suffers’ when toilets don’t have door gaps and there’s an emergency situation inside the cubicle. If you can’t be seen or heard, you can’t be rescued.

Of course this affects women and children the most (assaults) and medically vulnerable (diabetes, epilepsy, heart conditions, strokes).

Single sex designs are the only designs that can have door gaps. As soon as there’s ambiguity then the design goes private. Mixed sex toilets are always private.

Single sex toilets are the safest by design.

Well done for speaking out.
I agree join FSU and get advice, but don't use all your ammo in this first meeting, if they take it further they'll know what you're going to use as your defence. Try to let them do all the talking and don't be defensive, remember you're in the right, you're allowed to have an opinion.

You might have signed an employment contract but you didn't sign away your civil liberties, they just employ you they don't own you.

Good luck. 🦖😁🤞

You were talking about single sex toilets in the workplace which are required by law. Single sex means that under the Equality Act 2010 transwomen are not allowed to use the female facilities at work. This was recently confirmed by the SC ruling.

Ask your employer if they understand that this is current law with which they must comply.

Make the point that you think you can assume that no female colleagues are going to be attacked in the female facilities at work for being 'ugly women'.

Make this about the workplace, because that is what relates to your employment.

This is misinformation, you people might be able to fool each other into believing what you want - but good luck with the inevitable legal challenges you will face and lose lol

These cases have already been tested in court. The Supreme Court is the highest court in the UK.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Good one. Thanks for the entertainment.

Hello,

most people are used to working with a diverse group of people with a diverse range of opinions. It’s better to not work with other people if you aren’t able to accept differences or treat other people professionally.

😆

A safeguarding risks lets men, whatever they identify themselves as, into women's spaces. The OP is the opposite of a safe guarding risk.

Ah - I see we have an advocate of #nodebate and STFU women.

The gig is up mate. No men in women's changing rooms, toilets etc.
Women and girls are entitled to be safeguarded against the presence of random men in places where they're undressed and vulnerable. No amount of abuse from those determined to keep men in places where they're a risk to women works any longer.
The SC has spoken.

Rubbish, you need to educate yourself because whoever you've been learning this claptrap from has led you up the garden path. 🙄

The questions I ask are:

1. How do you know if someone is trans?
2. How does the person you’re whingeing to know the object of your ire is trans?

NB Outing a trans person is an HR issue and does render you liable to at least a warning.

You can moan all you like about the Supreme Court, Forstater, the ‘Law’, the sainted JK etc but all you’ve achieved is annoying the hell out of employers and the majority of sane humans.

Anyways the ultimate aim of Forstater and Reform is to get rid of the Equality Act 2010 and the ECHR. So bring it on. All employment rights disappear and I’ll be able ask at interview “Are you now or have you ever been a terf?” then bin you off. Similarly if you express terfy views to the annoyance of sane people, I can just sack you.

This is the endgame for the well-heeled grifters who’ve suckered you in. It works both ways.

Record the meeting, make notes during it and send an email afterwards with your recollection of what was said. You can later say you made contemporaneous notes and only disclose they were checked against a recording if needed. I'd ask about the workplace bullying policy and say that you were feeling distressed by the misogyny being shown by your colleagues in failing to consider the needs of their female employees.

"You can moan all you like about the Supreme Court, Forstater, the ‘Law’, the sainted JK etc but all you’ve achieved is annoying the hell out of employers and the majority of sane humans".

😂

I think you'll find that all the evidence shows the majority of the population are sick and tired of having "trans demands" imposed on them and are delighted that finally the UK is returning to prioritising democratic values, women's rights, safeguarding children and freedom of expression. All things that so many transactivists seem to be totally unfamiliar with.

But if it makes you feel better ranting against women on a feminist board, crack on. #OperationLetThemSpeak has been incredibly successful 😊

Is anyone else desperate to reply "Not if I sack you first!"

Then run away and tell a teacher?

For those who are unaware how well the Equality Act 2010 protects people who don't believe in gender ideology from discrimination at work, here is Prof Jo Phoenix's analysis of our success rates in the UK employment tribunal:

Don’t Get Caught Out
A Summary of Gender Critical Belief Discrimination Employment
Tribunal Judgments

https://centaur.reading.ac.uk/118472/8/Dont%20Get%20Caught%20Out%20final%20(002).pdf

[edit: paper title]

doesn’t that go for everyone in the OP work too?? It seems very much that as usual it’s other people who can’t be professional “ugly women in toilets” or tolerate diverse opinions that happen to be the actual law

Yes it does. I was replying to that idiot who’s been deleted now. I think they should stay at home in their bubble and not meet other people with a variety of opinions.
The OP has a perfectly reasonable point of view. Her workplace should be able to handle diversity of opinions.

Best of luck OP. You have done the women in your org a service! Agree with others who say "let them do the talking" - the "pause/silence" is your friend in these meetings, as someone feels compelled to fill it ( not you!) and this is where they are more likely to say something stupid that can be used to your benefit, should it be required. Another vote to contact the FSU.

I'm so sorry this has happened. Regardless of whether the meeting is officially recorded, I think I'd have my phone in my pocket recording anyway.

Fingers crossed for you, how horrible to be bullied for believing in facts

Helen Joyce, always the intelligent voice of reason, but spectacular on Woman’s Hour this week. Such a disgrace that she’d never been invited on before.

Have a listen, she destroys through calm logic & reason all the bleating of “what about the men’s feelings?”

FFS. Going by recent court cases, it probably wouldn’t hurt to send some contemporaneous texts to a friend explaining the convos