I stuck my head above the parapet

[RedCrochetedWigFace]

So I work for a smallish company but we have a few different branches throughout the country. I think each branch has a least one trans woman. I've no idea if we've any transmen. They don't make as much of a drama and noise if we do.

There is a staff group who are generally well meaning but they've started kicking off about how awful the supreme court ruling is blah blah blah. They are mostly women. I tried respectfully pointing out that no-one has lost any rights and that it's actually protecting women's rights.

I said that I want any trans people to feel comfortable at work and if that's not the case then action absolutely needs to be taken but that the supreme court judgement shouldn't make a difference to that. Someone said what about the "ugly women who look like men" who were dragged out of women's toilets. I said that was an awful thing to call a woman and misogynist. I was accused of avoiding the question. They said that the ruling meant that women who don't look/present as women will also suffer and seemed to think that undermined the argument that no ones rights were being negatively impacted.

I just reiterated that anyone feeling unsafe at work needs support regardless of gender/perceived gender or any other factor. I asked what the group wanted to achieve. They said they want trans people to feel safe at work. I dont think I hid my exasperation.

I'm pretty sure I was respectful throughout. I tried to be.

Now I have a meeting with my manager and HR on Tuesday. I have spoken with ACAS. It's not a formal meeting so I'm not allowed to take anyone in with me.

FFS.

@RedCrochetedWigFace All the best for your meeting with the higher-ups 🤞.

Maybe you can ask at Mumsnet Central for those comments and replies on this thread to be deleted, that are not on topic of the original question, so as not to invite more off topic stuff? Or if they don't want to do that, have the thread locked and start anew?

To @everyone: What happened to Don't feed the troll? Maybe we should just stop replying completely to this kind of baiting? It's not as if we haven't heard it all, and can't identify this type of poster quickly (and these men won't be swayed by arguments from women). If these men don't get replies and engagement, they will go away. And if a newbie still replies to baiting, one could ask her nicely to retract/delete her reply, and explain why.

What happened to 3 strikes and you're out which used to be the rule on this board?

Good luck for tomorrow OP. Let us know how it goes.

Op - if you haven't given up in despair on this thread after all the derailing, this guidance about the SC judgment and businesses for retailers from Irwin Mitchell looks very useful:

https://www.theretailbulletin.com/retail-solutions/legal-do-retailers-have-to-provide-single-sex-toilets-and-changing-rooms-for-their-customers-and-staff-19-05-2025/

Was just thinking of reposting that here. Very clear and pertinent advice esp.

I suggest that you avoid sending out messages which express sympathy with one protected group as you will expose your organisation to charges that you are partisan and have ‘picked a side’. And these sorts of communications will be disclosable in any legal proceedings and will be used by your opponent to undermine your credibilty.

Yes, this is very welcome.

I've just read that too. Should be very helpful to OP.

'If you’ve allowed staff to self ID into toilets/changing rooms that don’t align with their biological sex, you will need to put in place a new policy and communicate this to your staff.'

The law is clear.

Which is why I think it would be helpful to spend the first part of the meeting pinning down, in writing, exactly what the complaint is before responding. (And allowing awkward slicences rather than jumping in to help the HR person). They will either expose themselves as discriminatory and without knowledge of how the equality act works. Or they will back down.

I'm so much more interested in what the OP has to report than the unhinged ruminations of some trans activist. NGL.

That is pretty direct advice. In this day and age though where staff have been primed that certain groups get priority treatment, I feel it is too late.

posted before (I think) about a transwoman complaining that a pcos etc group didn't welcome them with open arms and the group had to close. Obviously that's not the formal reason but everyone knows its the real reason.

OP of this was at work it suggests a real problem with that individual tw, and also with the broader culture at your workplace that this one person was able to ruin something. On a general point it shows how useless all the 'people with ovaries' language is. Even when you do limit something to a specific body part or function it can still be derailed.

I hope the meeting goes well. In fact I hope you are pleasantly surprised. And please do keep us posted.

@AzureCritic Why would I need to put Cakeblanchet’s factual, reasoned response into ChatGPT to see ‘the propaganda’?

Surely if I’m so clearly being hoodwinked you can take the post apart for me? Actually I’d really appreciate that, you know, debate & all that.

I’ll wait …….

Apologies, hadn’t caught up with the thread before posting. I agree, time to stop feeding the monster.

All the best for tomorrow OP.

Let us know how it goes OP.
Remember put yourself first in terms of job security and it's fine to answer with a question "can you explain what that means?" , "can you give me an example?", "can I research that and get back to you as I'm not sure what you mean"?
Gender is a manmade construct and difficult to factually describe (as it's not factual), so asking them open questions puts them on the gender woo tightrope where they can slip up.

Totally agree with this, get them to define anything they ask.

Best of luck tomorrow.

I too am hoping all goes well tomorrow, well later today in fact.

Of all the suggestions made, just go with the one or ones that you feel most comfortable with.

This is just an "informal" chat.

And if they try to put pressure on you, or something, just say you hadn't realised it would be that type of meeting.

I am sure you will do fine.

You’ve had excellent advice so I won’t add to that (as I can’t !) but just wanted to wish you luck today x

All the best OP

Good luck

You're in my thoughts today 💪

Good luck @RedCrochetedWigFace x

Good luck with today. Lurking but waving a flag for you. X

Helen Joyce posted a recommended link to this guidance by Irwin Mitchell
https://www.theretailbulletin.com/retail-solutions/legal-do-retailers-have-to-provide-single-sex-toilets-and-changing-rooms-for-their-customers-and-staff-19-05-2025/

This sentence may be helpful for anyone countering the 'be kind' mantra in comms:
"I suggest that you avoid sending out messages which express sympathy with one protected group as you will expose your organisation to charges that you are partisan and have ‘picked a side’. And these sorts of communications will be disclosable in any legal proceedings and will be used by your opponent to undermine your credibilty.
Explain in neutral language what the Supreme Court has said and why you have to follow it. Invite individuals who are concerned about the change in approach to speak to their line manager (or other appropriate person)."

I wish you well today, RedCrochetedWigFace

May reason prevail!

Joining in to offer solidarity, OP.