I am gobsmacked by what I'm reading on other forums

[WallaceinAnderland]

This (my underlining)

"It seems to me, that the core issue that is behind all the bigotry and transphobia is the issue of predatory men. Obviously, I know that certain bigots won't change their minds. I'm not talking about that minority, I'm talking about the easily swayed majority.

"The whole "debate" centres around protecting women. I think we need to reframe it. We need to reframe it so that we protect ALL women (including trans women and women of colour) from predatory men."

I mean, what the actual fuck? Can this person not see their racism?

I've not often read it (I prefer to understand the other points of view by reading articles and blogs by trans people and TRAs, it feels less creepy to read work intended as a publication than to eavesdrop on a conversation) but what you said reminds me that teenage girls can be very judgy as well.

There's pressure in teenage subcultures to prove you are the real deal, not a pretender and making permanent changes to your body is a very strong demonstration that you are not just pretending, of proving you are serious not just to others but to yourself. When I was young it was hairdye and tatoos and piercings to prove you weren't a weekend goth or a part time punk.

So you have this double whammy of people who are somewhat insecure and feel different and are wanting to belong finding a group that gives them an identity and a reason to be different and most importantly that unlike the "normal" people who have rules you don't get, with this group you can make very clearly signposted changes to prove you belong.

And I wonder how much of that is going on at the just about conscious or subconscious level in the push to get hormones and surgery.

And thinking about it, also in the performance and validation of fear. Does focusing on how scared you are in some way validate to others and yourself that your trans identity is real? Does insisting how scared you are of them out there reinforce your confidence to be one of us in here?

Why don't you actually engage with the points.

Transwomen are men. It's literally the only qualifier to being a transwoman. Only men can be transwomen.

That is all I have said. How is that discriminating?

Wow so eloquent

It’s obvious that the whole of the Feminism board hates men and especially trans women who are men .. no exceptions

Yes all the women here in relationships with men, with fathers and sons and brothers they all actually hate because we all obviously hate men

as always the predictability of TRA ‘arguments’ never ceases to amaze

If someone disagrees with you on here, they don't shout at you, interrupt you, talk over you. Your words appear on the screen, their words appear on the screen. That's all. You are not being threatened. Don't be afraid. It's conversation, that's all.

Sounds like a blatant case of projection to me.

trans women who are men .. no exceptions

Finally, you get it!

As you acknowledge that "trans women" are men, hopefully with a bit more thought you will come to understand the reason why we don't want them in women's spaces.

My post wasn’t about the validity of the arguments, it was about the nature of this forum which allows some viewpoints to be heard over others. It’s not a level playing field.

hmm, having been at this terfing a while, I remember when GC views were in the minority and prone to being drowned in trans activist or be kind type replies.

it doesn't make being critical of gender as any kind of basis for anything wrong though. even when lots of people say it's wrong i'm still very sure it's right. and playing out the arguments only makes me surer. i've yet to have anyone tell me what I have in common with Angela Merkel and Juno Dawson that I don't have in common with Boris Johnson. Old politicians, that's how long we've all been at it.

although to be fair i have been on the receiving end of an MN dog pile. and even though i thought those dishing out the scolding were nuts and actually quite funny some of the time, it wasn't enjoyable.

I would recommend understanding the common definition of basic words if you don't want lots of replies saying 'hang on a minute!' though

i actually remember when it was physically scary to be openly terfy. having to walk past screaming people to attend public meetings. getting my picture taken by a culture warrior when I was doing street canvassing for fair play for women. I didn't enjoy that much and it didn't feel like a level playing field at all.

I had the courage of my convictions though, so I did it anyway.

What, specifically, do you mean by a level playing field?

• You write one post, then only one post is allowed to disagree with you?

or

• You write one post, then only one post is allowed to reply to you whether positive or negative?

or

• Some other arrangement

How about if people are posting all around your post, in a similar vein to what you posted, but not actually replying to you, yet unavoidably those posts address your claims because that's how internet forums tend to work? Does that count as a dog pile?

How about the nature of other fora where some viewpoints are not just heard over others, but other viewpoints are deleted and banned? I hope you are even-handedly complaining about the lack of a level playing field on those?

How clever.. selecting words from my post to suit your agenda.. I don’t ‘get’ anything actually I know a trans woman and I see her as just that.. a woman not a man, she was in the women’s toilets with me and I didn’t give it a second thought

See my previous post and do try not to be so patronising

Oh my god you’re right!!! We should literally base all the law on your nice trans friend. Why did no one think of this before?

🙄

it's right up there with 'I expected a story about my nephew to make you think men are OK in women's spaces' that we had on another thread.

But you don't. You see this person as a 'transwoman'. Otherwise you'd just say it was a woman.

I too used to know trans women when I was attending support groups. I too saw them as women, because that's what we do in support groups. But the fact remains that they are biological males, just as I am a biological female. It's a fact; there's no going around that. It's certainly not a kind thing to do to encourage them to deny that fact, to entertain any kind of delusion about it. The best thing to do is to help them find ways to deal with it, by facing it and finding appropriate solutions.

That's a bit rich.

You know one bloke whose effeminate and you like. I'm sure they are very nice to you but they still shit on the wishes of other women who do 'have a second thought'. That second thought can be for all manner of reasons.

Here's the thing, we don't base the law on nice people. We base the law on the shitty ones who do shitty things.

And women still need to consent too. You don't get to consent on anyone else's behalf.

Lots will have valid reasons not to share toilets and changing facilities with males they don't know. Why don't they matter?

You also seem to be under this deluded impression that you are the other person ever who has met a transwoman...

That's not true.

@SnowFrogJelly

But it's not true that you see transwomen as women is it. You are selective.

You don't think these men are women do you.

Yes. That was eye opening in the expectation and the reaction when people simply didn’t respond to the emotional pleading.

This is the part so many miss.

once you see it, you can not miss it.

Which are doomed to failure....like most official engagement with Irish. But I think the Irish words for husband and wife are very sweet : Fear chéile / Bean chéile ie Together Man / Together Woman. Works so well for gay people. Whereas in English husband implies wife and vice versa. Or maybe that's just conditioning!
But on your point : I shudder to think of the poor children having to learn a new gender in Gaeilge.

Ah! Thank you.