I am gobsmacked by what I'm reading on other forums

[WallaceinAnderland]

This (my underlining)

"It seems to me, that the core issue that is behind all the bigotry and transphobia is the issue of predatory men. Obviously, I know that certain bigots won't change their minds. I'm not talking about that minority, I'm talking about the easily swayed majority.

"The whole "debate" centres around protecting women. I think we need to reframe it. We need to reframe it so that we protect ALL women (including trans women and women of colour) from predatory men."

I mean, what the actual fuck? Can this person not see their racism?

Don't forget this beauty of force teaming strategising:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5fd0f29d0d626c5fb471be74/t/61b13d00236e2f7f2dbb9a36/1639005441624/Transgender+Youth+and+the+Freedom+to+Be+Ourselves.pdf

Messaging Guide: Transgender Youth and the Freedom to Be Ourselves
Building Our Choir with a Race Class Gender Narrative

Transgender Law Center

Here is just a snippet

AUTHENTIC SELVES

Our top message for persuadables and the highest or second highest rated narrative for respondents of every racial group. This message also increased people’s excitement to join together with others to create change.

Across our races, backgrounds and genders, we want to be treated with dignity and respect. But today, certain politicians are pushing laws that restrict our freedoms because of the color of our skin, what’s in our wallets, or because we are transgender. They exploit divisions and fears among us so they can get and hold onto power, denying us the basic rights, resources, and respect all people deserve. By [rejecting this division/passing protections against discrimination], we can ensure each one of us has the freedom to be ourselves, pursue our dreams, and have a good life — no exceptions.

I stopped being actively involved in SPN fandom way back in 2007 - some of the fans are extremely difficult to interact with in a non-argumentative way. It’s like they come to every discussion spoiling for a fight 😳 There was also a problem of Big Name Fans (BNFs) amassing a following that they would set on you if you disagreed with them 🙄 It could get very messy on LiveJournal but Tumblr was extra 🤯

It only seems to be certain fandoms though, doesn't it? You never hear about this kind of thing from people who are really into Daria.

Probably has something to do with demographics of the fandom.

I think it is mostly a strategy by some people, mostly white and mostly male, to position other people, mostly white and mostly female, as being in opposition to a cause (men's sexual rights) implicitly represented as analogous to the black civil rights movement.

That's why they almost always cite "black women" rather than any other demographic.

However, I also believe that it is because transgenderism is root and branch misogynistic and, based on the demographics of its historical and current proponents, white supremacist, that they are so very comfortable doing this and probably do see black women as even more sub-human than they see white women.

Tall woman, short woman, black woman, white woman are all descriptions of
women, not men.

No one would say women (including short women) so why do they think it's acceptable to say women (including women of colour). It's awful and stands out as, at best, ignorance, and at worse outright racism. This racism might be acceptable on Reddit but it would not be acceptable here.

Men are not women and men cannot ever be women. That is not transphobic. But saying this basic truth on Reddit would get me banned while racist posters are allowed to stay.

"gadje" is also the origin of Geordie "gadgie", meaning any man, so certainly not a slur in the North East.

It's a slur in the west of Scotland. But a fairly gentle one, I'd say. Maybe on the level of 'scamp'?

I think the g-word SionnachRuadh was referring to was gypsy (or Gypsy), rather than gadje.

Joining you on the sidelines, @AsTreesWalking. This is something I have thought a lot about. I think we’d forge a much more productive social Revolution if we focused on the humility of old-fashioned thee/thou second-person pronouns when people are speaking TO us, rather than dictating others’ use of third-person pronouns when they are speaking ABOUT us.

@AlexandraLeaving well, quite. Interesting that you refer to humility as I first understood this linguistic quirk when I read Voltaire's Letters on England, and he expressed irritation at a Quaker for referring to him as 'Thee.' After they had talked longer together, however, Voltaire became more and more impressed with the Quakers' ideas and sincerity. Humility on both sides of the matter, in fact, how very refreshing!

Totally agree. The Quakers stuck with thee/thou until well into the 20th century. Very impressive. We need more of that humility and decency in public debate. Perhaps, when asked what our preferred pronouns are, we should be opting for thee/thou. Those could actually be used in discussion.

OMG I'm so there for that! My pronouns are now Thee/thou.

I think you are misunderstanding what people who think this way are saying.

Their point is that no one would say it about "short women". But that people have, or so the say, said such things about women of colour. SO they are saying that it is wrong to put women of colour in a different category than women as a whole.

They are then saying that transwomen are the same - they are women like other women and shouldn't be seen as a different type of women.

This only works for someone if they actually believe that transwomen are really women in the same way other groups of women (short, black, blond, etc) are women. If you don't think that it's a nonsensical statement. But it is logical from the point of the TRAs who really think transwomen are women. (Not correct, but logical.)

I knew a university chaplain who, at a student union meeting he was asked to attend, put thee/though on the pronoun section of the name badge they gave him.

I don’t think you can call people out for being racist when you are blatantly discriminating against trans people

Discriminating how? And compared to whom exactly?

Plop.

It's awful. A lot of the people seem tp be really low mentally, and they're hooked on stuff that will keep them upset and medicated ☹️

What @AliasGrace47 said. It’s worrying that there are so many vulnerable teenagers on there.

There are some older MtFs who seem to drive a lot of the agenda, but the bulk of the contributors seem to be girls and young women with extremely poor mental health, who've been sold trans identity as the cure for all the things they feel scared and miserable about. And they're just finding new ways to be scared and miserable.

Excuse me? I just don’t have time to sit monitoring mumsnet all day!

And nobody has handed me my arse thank you very much.

I strongly disagree with the sentiment that ‘women are expected to roll over, and the reason we’re accused of dog piling on here is because we don’t’. The reason you are accused of dog piling is because it’s exactly what happens on here, not because you are women ffs (and ironically there’s no way of telling how many of you actually are, anyway). I asked chat GPT to define dog piling and it said:
“Dogpiling is a term used to describe a situation where multiple people gang up on or aggressively target one individual, often in an online context such as social media or forums. It typically involves a large number of comments, messages, or attacks directed at a single person, which can feel overwhelming or harassing, even if individual messages might seem mild on their own.”

Of course it happens that women are called names when they speak up for what they care about, but to put what happens on here down to that is being deliberately obtuse and playing a victim card to avoid accountability.

Dogpiling EXACTLY what happens on here. One person will say something against the grain, and then they need to respond to 15 messages within the space of 10 minutes. That’s just not do-able, and if they step away (which is normal because sometimes it takes a while to think about how to reply to that many messages) they get accused of having their arse handed to them and ‘losing’! Those messages may not all be aggressive, but that doesn’t matter.

A lot of the arguments shared on here are repeated points (pronouns are rohypnol, cutting of/mutiliating of healthy body parts etc, AGP) which lots of people have stock answers for and ask leading questions to divert from the initial point a non-GC posted into ensuring they lead into discussing one of these set topics. It’s all sea-lioning, derailing, motte-and-bailey, you name it and it’s on here.

Dog piling and manipulative and leading questioning has become part of the day to day patter on this corner of mumsnet.

I’m not saying it’s anyone’s fault, but 100 GC views and then 1 dissenting view battling against all those GC views is an echo chamber and not a fair space for debate. So no, I may not be removed off the platforms, but it’s not just about that.

@WhatNextCatsAsDoctors

I hear what you say. Where would you suggest would be a fair space for debate?

If you have dozens of people pointing out the flaws in what you're saying and you don't feel you have reasonable counterarguments to their points, then maybe it's worth reconsidering your views?

Where did I say that they wouldn’t feel they had reasonable counter arguments?

Well if you do have reasonable counterarguments then you can just post them. No-one is stopping you.