I am gobsmacked by what I'm reading on other forums

[WallaceinAnderland]

This (my underlining)

"It seems to me, that the core issue that is behind all the bigotry and transphobia is the issue of predatory men. Obviously, I know that certain bigots won't change their minds. I'm not talking about that minority, I'm talking about the easily swayed majority.

"The whole "debate" centres around protecting women. I think we need to reframe it. We need to reframe it so that we protect ALL women (including trans women and women of colour) from predatory men."

I mean, what the actual fuck? Can this person not see their racism?

Everyone knows what a woman is.

She's the one that gave birth to these fuckwits.

Even if you try and pretend differently you know this.

If they want protected status, they need to accept sex. Otherwise they legally disappear into invisibility in legal definability.

The conversation can not get past legal definitions and ability to define women.

This isn't a MN problem.

This is a 'how the law works' problem and a 'what actual reality is' problem.

This isn't an issue to do with the communication skills of anyone here.

We can't change the laws of physics or biology.

And still off topic but I agree. Comments can appear personal when they're meant to be general
'One' makes me feel like I'm impersonating the queen or putting on a telephone voice 😆

Not sure what the problem is. You've said you don't agree. Majority of the people here might not agree with you.

What you've said isn't deleted and stands for anyone else to see or agree and disagree with.

Do we have to ignore you or agree with you en masse for it to be a "good" conversation?

Back to the subject of the OP which is presumably from reddit.
The main difference I find between here and there is that on MN, threads are supported by evidence- research and verifiable statistics. If someone just pulls some nonsense out of their backside, they're pulled up and asked for proof/links. Any old claim or study isn't just taken at face value.

Reddit on the other hand. The outrageous nonsense posted there with no basis in science or reality is off the scale, and other posters either agree or thank them for the information.
'Oh so after 12 months on oestrogen I'll start having periods? Good to know thanks' and so on.

I've often wondered if they're all just trolling each other. Or trolling the lurkers. I can't think of any other explanation for the absurdities they come out with. They can't all be delusional or uneducated.

WhatNextCatsAsDoctors

No one can shut you down. You can say what you want for as long as you like. All day, every day.

Do some transgender people really believe that women of colour are somehow separate to the class of women?

I am very much open to discussion on this and hearing why they think that, if indeed they do.

American forums tend to have a freedom of speech black hole when it comes to gender ideology.

I'm not sure it's a coincidence that American medical and pharmaceutical companies make an absolute fortune $$$ out of gender ideology.

I'm not sure it's a coincidence, but the UK certainly doesn't have the same attitude.

Look, perhaps I've been around longer than you but I'll play devil's advocate for a sec.

Gender ideologists believe that there are loads of different types of women.

Women with a penis, transwomen, women without a penis, ginger women, black women, Jewish women with a penis, Jewish women with a vagina, Italian women with or without a penis

It sort of goes on like that?

So it's not like racism exactly. It's more pure unadulterated misogyny.

I think the inference is that the women's rights movement is only interested in protecting white 'cis' women, hence the need to highlight the inclusion of trans women and women of colour.

You’d have to ask that question on a different forum because on this forum, Biological Women is the only qualifier.

You mean 'women'.

We don't even need the biological qualifier here.

True.👍

This forum is nothing like Reddit. Reddit actively works as an echo chamber. Voting up group think and down dissenting opinions. It’s nothing like here.

I think the believers of "black women have rights so transwomen are the same as black women" used to be frequent visitors of "pussy pass denied".

It's just plain old misogyny force teaming with any old social justice bandwagon.

Oh get on with yourself! You had one thread of pages upon pages upon pages of people debating with you, including me.

It is vital that people can disagree and debate. I certainly welcome it.

But if you come out with bullshit, expect to be challenged. That's not being in an echo chamber, that's the expectation that you can be a grown up.

I don't think they really believe it. It's an attempt at a 'gotcha', using false logic - "white women and black women are both women, so transwomen can be women too".

It's like arguing that because Tom Tabby, Suki Siamese, Mitty Manx and Puss Persian are all different but they're all cats, then Algy Pug also counts as a cat.

In other words, trying to use variety within a class of things as proof that something external to the class should be included in it, by ignoring what members of that class actually have in common.

I don't know whether there's a formal name for this particular variety of logic-fail, but a fail it is.

We often get accused of being an echo chamber. But in reality someone will post something that 98% of the women here disagree with, and those women will say so.

It's really not the responsibility of individual women to tell all the other women not to respond just because they're all in agreement!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Take your pick of logic failure. There's multiple ones.

I think the inference is that the women's rights movement is only interested in protecting white 'cis' women, hence the need to highlight the inclusion of trans women and women of colour.

Where are they getting that inference from. Is that just another made up thing?

Yep.

Just another stick to beat you with for not signing up to the whole manifesto of nonsense.

As well as idiotic statements masquerading as fact, Reddit seems to allow nasty insults and foul, inflammatory comments, which here would get deleted at best and at worst would get the poster banned.

(I'm just going by Reddit posts which have been quoted here; I never go on there.)

I think people expect pretty much to either be ignored or some version of ‘gentle discussion’. We see it quite often. People post and then complain when people engage with their post.

Some also might declare they are being ‘sworn at’ when women are simply expressing themselves in their own chosen manner. Those people don’t seem to differentiate between swearing generally and being ‘sworn at’.

But I have definitely seen posters who seem to expect ‘gentle discussion’ directed at them while they, mean while, make accusations and negative generalisations that are over exaggerated and hyperbolic.

I suspect that this ‘gentle discussion’ expectation comes from heavily moderated social media groups where little robust discussion happens.

I don't think it's stupid because it's racist. People who say things like that think black women are totally real women - they also think that's true of transwomen. They think they properly belong to the category of women and shouldn't be differentiated.

It's not really an argument as such, it only "works" if you already accept their premise that transwomen are not, and never were, men. So it's a bad argument, from a formal POV, rather than racist. As well as being biologically inaccurate.

There are people who say that, especially in the US. It's kind of a given in ID politics circles.