Helen Joyce finally makes it to Women's Hour today from 10am

[Another2Cats]

Just saw this:

Helen Joyce @ HJoyceGender
Morning all! Guess where I'm off to this fine day - Broadcasting House to discuss the @ ForWomenScot judgment, 4 weeks on, on @ BBCWomansHour! Do listen in. I'm looking forward to debunking some shocking disinformation, and reminding an astonished world that Women Have Rights Too

https://x.com/HJoyceGender/status/1922534653166006316

[EDIT]

Yes, I know I put "Women's" instead of "Woman's" in the title

I appreciate that lots will have switched off before the “gender index” pair had a lengthy slot, without being asked about why they were mentioning gender disparities, not sex. The Aussie lady is Julia Gilliard (Australia’s first female Prime Minister). Under Gillard’s government, the definition of “woman” was removed from the sex discrimination act.

I would have thought that her background was quite important for listeners to be made aware of (but perhaps I was crashing around the house too loudly to catch it).

This is a trick that is tried again and again in all kinds of contexts. That if your safeguarding measure doesn't work perfectly in 100% of all contexts, and that there might be the occasional unintended outcome, even if it's trivial, then this justifies abandoning safeguarding.

An example would be that because seatbelts do not automatically guarantee survival in all crashes, then they should be done away with.

It's such a common fallacy it even has a name, The Nirvana/Perfect Solution fallacy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

Well said. Years ago when I spent a good deal of time on Twitter, there was a trans-identified male who was not unlike Miranda, in that he was absolutely clear that he knew he was male and therefore needed to use the male loos. He was British, noticeably short and slight in build and he used to post pictures of himself in that day's outfit (ordinary casual clothes, short hair, bit of make up) and stress that he had almost never had problems from other men, including when using the gents'. I believe he was banned from Twitter in the end. It wouldn't have suited the TRAs' agenda at all to have him there making these points.

I am not saying this to be cruel or nasty and if it comes across that way I apologise in advance ….but who ever said life was never meant to be hard or difficult. People make decisions and we have to deal with the consequences of those decisions.

It is not Helen’s responsibility to continually address and acknowledge the emotions of trans identifying people. She never gets invited onto the BBC so why should she have to waste valuable interview time taking away from her opportunity to speak out and about the points she wants to make.

Helen made the very important point about why she doesn’t use the language of TRAs. If we adopt their language we end up in the ridiculous situation of having to justify excluding some women from women’s spaces. The point is stronger when we are talking about excluding ALL men irrespective of how they feel about themselves.

Yes, this was brought up by a caller at the end of the programme.....that she had 'misgendered' Robin.

I heard her voice go dry at the start. A sure sign of fear.

Yes there was too long a gap which is very noticeable on the radio where she was clearly lost for words.

😁

Nope!

And I think this point is missed a LOT in the arguments.

TW in men's loos are far more physically able to defend themselves against an attack (if it came) by another man.

Women in women's loos are not going to be able to defend themselves against an attack from a man (TW or otherwise).

It's ridiculous. The main reasons mothers take infant boys into female toilets are

a) because they still need help with aspects of toileting and hygiene

b) safeguarding from adult men (though admittedly this cut off is a grey area because boys over 7 are still vulnerable so IME it's a risk that has to be managed carefully by their adult carers for a few years)

If RMW is suggesting there are adult men who fall under a) then clearly we are talking about disabled men who will have at least one carer with them. In that situation they are catered for with accessible toilets for disabled people.

Point b) is a non starter unless you are arguing that every type of man with a vulnerability should be able to use the female facilities - old, gay, teenage etc.

If anyone does want to argue this then they need to explain how if adult men are not safe with other adult men this magically makes it safe for women and girls (arguably more vulnerable than any man) to share spaces with men.

one thing that struck me in the interview was that the host said something about organisations "not complying with the law the way you'd like them to". It was a question i think (I really could do with a transcript, I'm rubbish at remembering things.

what is "not complying with the law"? that would be "not obeying the law". It is a stupid fatuous thing to say.

@peregina,I think the whole debate has become more toxic, not less. Yes, people should have some empathy for trans women and not think they are all manipulative rapists. I say that as someone who agrees with the supreme court outcome. I’ve read some vile shit on here, including, can you believe, about their toilet habits. Ffs. How to win with dignity, I don’t think.

This is shameful. How much power does RMW have? He got a thread deleted here yesterday and now he gets a grovelling apology from the BBC. Marginalised my arse.

x.com/JournalistJill/status/1922617022598279382?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

It isn't the "complying" or "obeying" that irritated me in that bit, it was the fact that the presenter said "complying with the law in the way that you [i.e. Helen] would want them to"

It isn't about whether Helen wants them to comply with the law! It's the fact that IT IS THE LAW.

oh no. "What about da menz?!"

just stop it. It is tedious. We have made it very clear several times that this is not about men and their feelings are (relatively) immaterial. We are talking about women. Women's rights.

Have you EVER, @marmaladeandpeanutbutter ever gone on a forum full of TRAs and asked them "what about da womenz?"

"and not think they are all manipulative rapists"

No one has said that on here. You see what you want to see.

I think a point also ignored a lot is how the majority of men are not looking to start something in a communal toilet. My understanding is that they want to get in and out of there as fast as possible, eyes to the floor and no small talk especially where urinals are concerned.

In the vast majority of situations if encountering someone obviously male who stood out in some way (not necessarily just trans) I get the impression most men would do their utmost to 'not notice' and leave in a timely fashion.

The trans presenting males that do regularly use male toilets and post about it on SM seem to bear out this argument.

I acknowledge that anywhere where men congregate together there is always some risk of assault, even if small. However this is where men need to step up with campaigning and awareness raising. It's not a problem to be shoved on to women with a much higher degree of risk, harm and loss of privacy/dignity.

Why not?

I'm not denying that. It's just that any personal dig leaves her open to criticism. And opens up that stupid argument along the lines of 'what about trans men?/what about small trans women?' ie is it then OK to let SOME men into women's spaces and where do you draw the line.

Great post @OvaHere . Beyond time for men to step up and say that all men are welcome in male spaces, however they present

I don't think describing someone as tall and imposing is a dig. It's a factual statement

See my reply to this point above.

I'm still giggling at Helen's response: 'Yes, that was a good bit of legerdemain from Robin, wasn't it'

No-one here has ever said they are all manipulative rapists.

I take it from that you have no understanding of the basis of safeguarding and how it works.

The toilets habits of men claiming to be women who have entered women toilets are truly appalling, I agree.

Indeed.