Helen Joyce finally makes it to Women's Hour today from 10am

[Another2Cats]

Just saw this:

Helen Joyce @ HJoyceGender
Morning all! Guess where I'm off to this fine day - Broadcasting House to discuss the @ ForWomenScot judgment, 4 weeks on, on @ BBCWomansHour! Do listen in. I'm looking forward to debunking some shocking disinformation, and reminding an astonished world that Women Have Rights Too

https://x.com/HJoyceGender/status/1922534653166006316

[EDIT]

Yes, I know I put "Women's" instead of "Woman's" in the title

We'll know when the BBC is no longer captured by this nonsense when they stop issuing apologies for presenters calling a man a man.

Someone showed me a group name game the other day.

You say your own name, but point to the next person at the same time. Then they say their name, and point to another person.......

I failed 😆

Helen Joyce recently explained her thoughts on this on Twitter

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1924037322615456133.html

One of the most irritating thing about transactivists is the way they think everything is all about them. I don't call trans-identifying men men in order to harass them - I do it because THEY ARE men, and I'm not willing to be bullied into pretending they are not. 1/6

As well as doing it because the ordinary way to use words is to describe the facts I see, I do it because these particular facts matter. If I call a trans-identifying man - Robin Moira White, say - a woman, it's harder to say why he should stay the hell out of women's spaces.2/6

Of course this isn't harassment! It's not conduct, or a course of conduct, towards the trans person at all - it's just me speaking standard English & declining to accept the imposition of someone else's quasi-religious observances, thereby indicating a belief I do not share. 3/6

I feel the same about this as I would about a religious colleague insisting I say things like 'I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty' or 'Praise be to Allah', or a flat-earther colleague insisting I never mention that the Earth is a globe because it upsets them. 4/6

I'll tell you what really might reach the threshold for harassment in the workplace: nagging a colleague to use quasi-religious wording they don't believe in, and complaining and threatening them if they won't. If someone has asked me to pretend to believe in genderism... 5/6

...and I've declined and indicated that I will continue to use ordinary, polite words in an appropriate manner according to the standard linguistic rules of the English language, they should leave me be. That's how we can all rub along: they use their words and I use mine. 6/6

Isn't there a negative missing from para 2?

My edit:

If I call a trans-identifying man - Robin Moira White, say - a woman, it's harder [for anyone] to say why he should NOT stay the hell out of women's spaces.

No, I think you've misread that one.

RMW is male (a man) but says he identifies as a woman. Helen says that if she agrees to call him a woman, it's harder to explain why he should stay out of women's spaces (the reason being simply: he is, in fact, a man).

Can anyone link me to the BBC Sounds interview? I've tried searching for Helen Joyce, and for the date, but no luck.

Thank you @TheHereticalOne . You are right, of course. It just shows how much this muddles the (OK, my) brain..

Wow - I'm shocked at what a hard time Nuala McGovern gave Helen! One woman to another and the takeaway I got is that Nuala thinks Helen is in the wrong and being mean and should be more kind. Dreadful interview and well done Helen for being so clear, reasonable and getting all her talking points in - yay Helen! You're a star and a warrior for women's rights 💪

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002c35m

Here it is. The interview starts at about 9.40

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002c35m

That is very clear.

I think that since the Upton case, people are very much more reluctant to continue complying the way they might have previously. I do wonder if Janice Turner regrets using that ever so divisive and fucked up term 'ultra' now?

They didn't name her on the website - she is just "Sex Matters".

No, I think it's definitely generally confusing! (And arguably designed to be so).

As well as doing it because the ordinary way to use words is to describe the facts I see, I do it because these particular facts matter. If I call a trans-identifying man - Robin Moira White, say - a woman, it's harder to say why he should stay the hell out of women's spaces.2/6

Helen’s 2nd tweet hits the nail on the head. Using preferred pronouns just to be polite or out of respect risks destroying our fundamental rights.

I've just listened to it and took something different from it. On the little boy bit, I think the presenter genuinely believes they won a point. If you listen to her voice as she moves into the next segment it's smug, satisfied. I think she thinks she caught HJ out and is really pleased with herself. And because a portion of her audience will have wanted that to be true, they may well think so too.

Bev Jackson of LGBA wrote about about her choice to use certain identifiers. I can imagine Janice having a similar thought process

Bev Jackson
@BevJacksonAuth

Some people insisted that we call them “men” many years ago. They were contemptuous of what they saw as linguistic capitulation. This was in a time when hundreds of women were being banned from Twitter for pointing out that TWAM. Those of us who wanted to stay on Twitter called them “transwomen”. Beyond social media, we wanted to reach the uninitiated on the left, who had been indoctrinated into ignoring anyone who said TWAM. They saw such people as hateful bigots and dismissed their views. Many still do - but far fewer. Now that more people on the left are better informed, it is no longer pragmatic or sensible to compromise - or prevaricate. I know some people disagree with me - and that is of course their right - but my choice is to weigh such decisions in the light of the changing social context. My aim has always been to reach as many people as possible.

https://x.com/BevJacksonAuth/status/1924060963197571524

Edited to add: you’re right though that coining the term ultra wasn’t very helpful and I agree it was divisive, which is different to what Bev is talking about.

I still can’t face listening to Friday: Did they say which men will be on to give “a female perspective” this coming week?

What I love about those series of tweets from Helen Joyce is the fact that anyone can take almost any one of them to justify their stance on being factual, not lying, and not being bullied.

Because it is bullying. It is coercion. You're under constant threat, otherwise you wouldn't keep being told how awful you are for not doing it.

Fuck that.

Kellie J keen also nailed it, quite a few years ago. When asked why she couldn't just be kind and use preferred pronouns, she said because it's lying.

it's a very strong stance to take. Because very few people would admit to trying to persuade you to lie outright

Is it LGB Alliance today? I can't see anything in the schedule?

Yes, that was it. Sex Matters today, with Baroness Falkner on Weds.

Sex Matters issued a press release to the media over the weekend that is now being reported this morning. They commissioned a YouGov survey about attitudes to the SC judgement:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/supreme-court-trans-public-opinion-b2753173.html

Yes, the person they are interviewing is Kate Barker-Mawjee who is the CEO of LGB Alliance

Yes and as usual she is not being trailed on X (so far, anyway...)

ETA: she gave a great quote on a recent BBC 'article' that was the usual TRA love-in:

"But for Kate Barker, chief executive of LGB Alliance, the ruling brought welcome clarity.
Her organisation was part of the case and argued biological sex was more important than gender.
"It's not an objection to anyone being trans. It's an objection to male people in women's spaces," she says.
"And that means all men. You can't let in a certain type of man. You can't let in men who are nice, or men that you know, or men who sincerely believe they are women, and not other men.
"It is binary."
Ms Barker says she "regretted" that trans people feel scared, calling for "calm" and saying she hopes the ruling will lead to improved services for them.
"I think it should be a kick to the lobby groups and to the government to really think about what services do trans people need in order to have dignified, respectful ways to go about their business and to exist fully in society.""

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1e6l89wyewo

Having separate threads for the different days seems to have worked well so I've set up a separate thread for LGBA today:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5337804-its-monday-and-so-its-lgb-alliance-on-womans-hour-to-discuss-the-supreme-court-judgment

Helen’s posted about how WH misrepresented her:

https://nitter.poast.org/HJoyceGender/status/1925111333906698291#m

And

https://nitter.poast.org/HJoyceGender/status/1925144817266311389#m

It’s just a side show the law is the law and it is there in an exceptional black and white read.