Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

Well, I wouldn't know, because I haven't been in the trans community for a decade.

But I would guess, based on how it was barely discussed back then and what I've seen on trans sites, that they simply don't acknowledge (publicly anyway) the existence of the big group of AGP men. I imagine those AGP men are treated as trans women like any others.

See, one fundamental principle in the trans community is that there's no right or wrong way to be trans. You don't have to have gender dysphoria. You don't have to present as the opposite sex. All you have to do is say, "I'm trans," and you're trans, equally trans to everyone else. So setting one group aside as being a special kind of trans, or worse, not trans at all, is literally unspeakable.

So really, when I'm saying that the trans community will have to deal with these people, I'm being terribly idealistic. At best, I'm thinking that there might be some fracturing coming up, but if so, then I imagine it would be the ones speaking up against AGP people who would walk away, while the AGP men remained safely ensconced in the greater trans community.

The “trans” community deny that AGP is a thing.

Some of the trans community deny AGP is a thing.

Some embrace it enthusiastically.

Debbie Hayton:

https://debbiehayton.com/2022/05/16/my-autogynephilia-story/

Phil Illy:

https://www.queermajority.com/essays-all/i-blew-up-the-internet-by-wearing-a-dress-to-a-gender-conference

Here's Julia Serano on AGP:

https://juliaserano.medium.com/autogynephilia-and-anti-trans-activism-23c0c6ad7e9d

Thank you. I’ll take a look 😊

Talking about AGP I'm interested in the trans mens version of this. This from Ray Blanchard which was linked by a poster for me to read. He talks about ftm being aroused by wearing men's clothes and imagining themselves but only in relation to them having gay sex with a man. What about the trans men who are attracted to women? He doesn't mention that at all although I'm sure it must apply. There's no reason to think trans men aren't also, I think the word is auto-androphiles . This doesn't seem to be mentioned.

Do you think that natal females ever experience autoandrophilia [sexual arousal at the thought or image of oneself as male]?
Clinical mentions of heterosexual women with strong masculine traits who say that they feel as if they were homosexual men and who feel strongly attracted to effeminate men go back over 100 years. I do not think they are the female equivalents of autogynephiles, and to underscore that point I have started referring to them as autohomoerotics. Some of these individuals do develop clinically significant gender dysphoria, and it is well documented that at least a few autohomoerotic gender dysphorics have undergone surgical sex reassignment and were satisfied with their decision to do so.
Until recent times, autohomoerotic female-to-male transsexuals were quite rare. The differences between autogynephilia in males and autohomoeroticism in females may seem subtle. Autogynephilic (male) gender dysphorics are attracted to the idea of having a woman’s body; autohomoerotic (female) gender dysphorics are attracted to the idea of participating in gay male sex. For autogynephiles, becoming a lesbian woman is a secondary goal—the logical consequence of being attracted to women and wanting to become a woman. For autohomoerotics, becoming a gay man appears to be the primary goal or very close to it.

Sorry forgot to add that link

I'm not convinced by his reasoning

To my mind an AGP is just a cross dresser, not really trans, does the same happen with some trans men?

What's the difference between a cross dresser and 'really trans'?

Hmm difficult question. I don't know how trans people think, but it seems from the mention of AGP's that they are motivated by the sexual arousal they get from wearing women's or men's clothes. I'm assuming it's something deeper for trans people who fully live their lives as trans but you'd have to ask that of a trans person, what their motivations are

Well I think someone like Debbie Hayton definitely lives their life as trans. It's just that they're also very open about the sexual element.

I just don't know how you draw the line between 'real' and not 'real'

No I don't know either to be honest

Fair enough

The line was always that if you say you're trans, you are.

But now there seems to be a clause saying 'apart from those ones, obviously'.

Which makes no sense.

Interesting! At first I was surprised, but then I realised I really shouldn't be. After all, I'm in fandom, so I know how obsessed with gay sex some women can be. It only makes sense that there would be some so obsessed with it that they'd want to enact it.

Personally, I'm attracted to men, but that's about it. I don't experience sexual arousal at the thought of having gay sex myself. On the contrary, it's one of the rare things that creates strong dysphoria in me, because I know I can never have it.

@TheKeatingFive

"What's the difference between a cross dresser and 'really trans'?"

A very tentative explanation would be that a cross dresser feels like they are one sex, but likes presenting as the other sex for whatever reason, while a "really trans" person feels like they are the other sex and that's why they present as such. So it would be a question of motivation, which makes it impossible to determine from the outside unless they outright say so. And they would both equally be covered under the larger trans umbrella anyway.

@PhoebesPony

"To my mind an AGP is just a cross dresser, not really trans, does the same happen with some trans men?"

Good question! I guess it's much harder to determine, even for the woman herself, because women can wear men's clothes freely, there's no stigma attached to it, so it would take a bit of introspection to determine whether her liking to wearing men's clothes qualifies as cross dressing.

I'm thinking now of the male prisioners who suddenly become trans. They are clearly not! So I do think there's a small section of, I imagine it's mainly men, who are doing it for nefarious purposes. At the same time most trans people I would think genuinely believe they are trans or prefer to live as what they perceive to be the opposite sex.

I totally agree re the prisoners, it's very evident that it's done for personal gain. And I can't believe that people bought into it, especially the Scottish Government.

Re the others, who knows. We can't. Which I suppose is where 'if you say you are, you are' bit came from. I believe that line is still being held, simultaneously with 'but not them' which is what baffles me.

**
"To my mind an AGP is just a cross dresser, not really trans, does the same happen with some trans men?"
Good question! I guess it's much harder to determine, even for the woman herself, because women can wear men's clothes freely, there's no stigma attached to it, so it would take a bit of introspection to determine whether her liking to wearing men's clothes qualifies as cross dressing.

I wonder, if it's true that there are a lot of AGP's ,whether some of that is down to the strong taboos against boys wearing typically female clothing, hairstyles etc. So it becomes a sort of secret for them growing up. If I'm really honest I'd happily send a daughter to school with a short haircut and typical boys clothes but if a son wanted to go wearing a dress and hair in a ponytail I would find that a bit difficult. It's wrong and I don't agree with myself haha 😂 but there it is.

Is it because you think the boy would be bullied more than the girl? I'd worry about that.

It's the power differential.

A girl dressing 'as a boy' is seen as brave.

A boy dressing 'as a girl' is seen as 'a sissy'.

It's just a reflection of the inherent sexism of society.

@PhoebesPony

"I wonder, if it's true that there are a lot of AGP's ,whether some of that is down to the strong taboos against boys wearing typically female clothing, hairstyles etc. So it becomes a sort of secret for them growing up. "

I have zero doubt about it, at least for some of them, that specifically breaking a taboo is what gets them going sexually. I mean, some of them outright say so.

Keeping it secret part as a child, however, is not so simple. A lot of (presumably) non-AGP trans women express that they loved wearing female clothing or playing with make-up or whatever as children, and that they kept it a secret, because they knew it was a forbidden thing and people would get mad at them if they knew. They didn't get any sexual thrill from breaking the taboo, but they knew they were breaking a taboo all the same, and hid as a consequence.

@ArabellaScott

Right. I keep forgetting about sissification. I know about it! I read gay fanfic, and sissification is a not so small part of it. But I have a negative interest in it, so the very existence of it keeps fleeting out of my head.

And of course there can't be any female counterpart. There can't be any shame to wearing men's clothes for a woman, so that's a whole impetus for female cross dressing that doesn't exist.

Yes probably. My instinct is just no! But how I would deal with it in practice I don't know. It' would be quite difficult to know what to do.

Yes as children there wouldn't be a sexual element to it but does that just naturally follow on later as they get older if they carry on with it, or do they first experience it as adults I wonder.