Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

I’m very much want to hear from @Seethlaw ‘s sister, she sounds a really interesting woman. How about it, OP? Can you persuade your sister to join us vipers?

@PhoebesPony - you have made a lot of accusations on this thread. At the start you disputed the actions of numerous transwomen and were given evidence to support our statements. You seemed open to looking at the picture more broadly.

Since then you’ve just hectored, castigated and accused the posters on this board of hate and prejudice. That’s not having a discussion, it’s telling us off.

We may not know you, but you certainly don’t know us.

If you think the way transwomen are spoken about rudely here, it in no way compares to the awful death threats, misogyny and general abuse spoken about women on other SM platforms. It's not just not in the same ball park, it's not even the same sport.

Respect has to be earned, not freely granted to space invaders who suggest that women should die in a grease fire.

Once the perfectly legal rules are obeyed, as they always should have been, maybe everything can become a little more neutral.

Yeah, that's the sort of things I meant. France really has a tense historical relationship with religion (all religions, religion in general), and there's a real struggle about how to deal with religion in public spaces.

@MoistVonL

"I’m very much want to hear from ‘s sister, she sounds a really interesting woman. How about it, OP? Can you persuade your sister to join us vipers?"

Ah, sorry, not a chance. She doesn't master English well enough to express herself, and even on French-speaking forums, she's typically a lurker. Sorry again. Though if you have specific questions, I can try asking her?

Transwomen are men...if that is what you mean?

This is SUCH an excellent post. You are very articulate, @Seethlaw. Thank you for coming on to MN and sharing your perspective.

I think that if someone declares that a male person is not longer a male person and that it is offensive to use this accurate language, then of course they are always going to over exaggerate how male people with transgender identities are spoken about.

They are certainly not about to accept the potential motivations for demanding to access female spaces being spoken about.

Remember there has now been numerous extreme transgender activists stating under oath that there is no way to discuss topics such as excluding male people from female provisions even if only accepted language is used. That feels pretty close to what we are seeing here.

That unless some poster’s personal standard of language is used, it is just to be dismissed as being hate and transphobic.

I am sure readers are watching this thread now and seeing the interaction. The hyperbole being used to disrupt the thread while censuring other people’s language. While not engaging in the discussion in any meaningful way.

If they have been on MN and social media watching similar discussions, they will see it. The demand for complying to language and belief. All while then somehow claiming to be not allowed to post. Hypocrisy and hyperbole.

I'm sure many of us would be happy to discuss most things (when relevant to the thread), were you to provide some examples.

Repeatedly asserting something doesn't make it true. If there's one thing women on this board respond well to, it's evidence and reasoned arguments. In my experience.

If you can't offer either, and are just vaguely scolding, I'm afraid you won't get very far.

I'm really sorry, all I ever seem to post is saying "I feel the same as @Seethlaw!" but it's such a novelty for me to hear from a trans person who is so similar to me that I feel the need to keep doing it😅

Yes, interestingly I've also always been able to keep calm when those around me seem not to be able to, and similar to what Seethlaw says, I'm not so bothered what others think of me. I guess with people of our personality type with gender dysphoria, transition is a bit more of a pragmatic choice; I certainly viewed it as a trade-off to 'solve' some of my issues whilst creating others, and I went in not expecting those around me to actually 'go along with it' socially. It has completely shocked me how many people in my life have seemingly accepted the transition wholesale.

I don't know if it's just different personality types, or different types of dysphoria, but there really do seem to be some very different categories amongst the trans-identifying population.

@TroubledWatersTW

"I'm really sorry, all I ever seem to post is saying "I feel the same as !" but it's such a novelty for me to hear from a trans person who is so similar to me that I feel the need to keep doing it😅"

Ha ha, no problem :) One reason I post is because I've long learned that I'm not some unique special snowflake. If I think or feel a certain way, I assume that there are necessarily people out there who think or feel the same. So when one of them pops up to say, "Me too," I'm happy they felt seen.

What specifically are you talking about?

Its not so much a block button, but the fact that some people just cant let go.

There is no obligation to reply to posts, particularly if you feel they are a derail.

Or politely suggest that as a thread has been about one person's experience, instead of trying to hijack it to talk about what they want, that they start their own thread - eg why are TM treated better that TW on FWR.

And assuming a genuine grievance worth a thread of its own, rather that appearing non-sequentially in a thread about something else.

Yes there are derailers, but there is also the fact that some of us cant help but rise to the bait.

Sad, because as others have said this thread has been interesting, and an example of learning by listening to each other.

Even if we dont end up all thinking the same, or even agreeing!

It’s been great to have such constructive engagement (minus the occasional derail). Thank you to @Seethlaw for starting the thread and to @VanishingVision and @TroubledWatersTW (I hope I have tagged correctly) for being willing to talk openly and without cliches.

No not at all trans women are just that - ' trans' women, they are not women and vice versa for trans men. I have never suggested I think that. I agree with a lot of points e.g sport and many others. To be called a trans activist is so far from the truth it's laughable. But I don't see why it has to descend to the depths that I've seen on this board when discussing trans women compared to trans men. They have a lot in common no? The same body dysphoria issues, mental health problems and many other things. I'm not on some mission to be on the side of trans women, I just don't get the huge difference in attitude. But as I've apparently been told eleventy times it's because they're men so I should just put up and shut up and go away. And I actually don't want to derail this thread, but when I put my point across it's like I'm not allowed to have a view and it's annoying. I really am going to shut up and go away now!

There is, of course, an obvious difference...transmen are female, and transwomen are male.

In addition people are all individuals, and just adopting a trans identity does not automatically make someone a lovely, nice, respectful or insightful person.

It is best to judge an individual on the nature and content of their post or their behaviour, or whatever. So, I guess you've probably seen comments that relate to men like Robin Moira White or maybe Inidia Willoughby, or to any number of AGP men who prioritise their own narcissistic needs for validation above the rights and dignity of the female sex?

The OP, on the otherhand is a sensitive, aware and considerate person who has respect for the dignity of other females.

I'm not sure you even said what your view is.......apart from the fact that you think 'transmen' are being treated differently to 'transwomen' on the board.

I think people have explained that is not the case across the board, and have also spelled out how they are making differentiations between one type of poster/person and another.

'....when discussing trans women compared to trans men. They have a lot in common no? The same body dysphoria issues, mental health problems and many other things. I'm not on some mission to be on the side of trans women, I just don't get the huge difference in attitude.'

A teenage girl struggling with puberty and body dysphoria is not the same as a fifty year old crossdressing man who gets sexual excitement from his fetish.

What do they have in common?

The reason it might appear as if trans men are treated differently is because trans men don't pose any threat to women (they are female and trying to live their lives as best they can, rather than male and using women's spaces) and because they don't come on here and lecture us about why we should give them whatever they want even at the expense of our own rights, as many trans women have been known to do.

But there are currently two trans women posting on this board in a perfectly respectful way and I don't think they are being treated particularly differently to trans men.

There are a handful of trans women and trans men posting on here at the moment and talking about their dysphoria and it does actually sound like they have quite a lot in common.

Certainly more in common with each other than a trans woman with genuine dysphoria has in common with someone who just has a fetish.

@ArabellaScott

"A teenage girl struggling with puberty and body dysphoria is not the same as a fifty year old crossdressing man who gets sexual excitement from his fetish."

And I'm yet another beast entirely, close to neither of them. So yeah, there are different groups among trans people, with different attitudes and needs, and they are necessarily going to be treated differently.

In particular, I didn't know about fetishists. Or rather, I'd vaguely heard of them, only to be told that they were a scarecrow invented by transphobic doctors, that they were exceedingly rare, and that they had nothing to do with trans people anyway. Quite clearly, I was lied to, and that group is a problem the trans community will have to deal with.

Exactly. There's a lot of diversity within people who identify as trans. It's absurdly simplistic to lump all together on the basis of claiming a 'trans' identity really.

Which was one point made by the Supreme Court - attempting to group on the basis of a mix of sex and 'identity' makes an incoherent grouping.

Here's a potted history of some of the reasons behind what you describe as the difference in attitude:

Autogynaephilia (AGP) is, according to the researchers who categorised it, a paraphilia and the predominant form of trans identity in the male population https://quillette.com/2019/11/06/what-is-autogynephilia-an-interview-with-dr-ray-blanchard/

In addition, sexologists have studied paraphilias and realised that they tend to cluster, so AGP can also co-exist in one male with other paraphilias (see interviews or writings by Dr James Cantor or Dr Az Hakeem). Also read the testimonies of the wives and children of AGP men https://www.transwidows.com/index.php/voices/transwidow-2/ or https://childrenoftransitioners.org/ or watch Vaishnavi Sundar's excellent documentary 'Behind the Looking Glass'

And sexologists and criminologists have learned that paraphilias tend to escalate as males seek more and more excitement/sexual stimulation - hence police learning to treat flashing and voyeurism in males more seriously than they used to because research has shown that these paraphilic crimes often escalate to sexual assault and murder (see Wayne Couzens' case being a perfect example).

Just as there are many different personalities within the human population!

It’s great to hear from some calm, reasonable trans women here. Thanks 💜

Oh this is interesting. Excuse my ignorance if this is a well known thing, but does the trans community believe that AGP men are a separate sub-group of trans people, or actually not really trans at all? And if so is anyone speaking out about it? Thanks.