Trans women are still women 2nd thread

[beetr00]

So very important for all sides.

Just wanted to continue this interesting and somewhat "provocative" debate

Putting out the bins doesn't require strength, that's my 12 year olds job. Ditto mowing the lawn. The stuff you've described as 'blue jobs' are just jobs, anyone can do them. They're not inherently men things.

Can’t have it all ways, SleeplessInWherever?

Oh can't we? You just have to think beyond the very limited 'They either need to do things, and have physical strength that we don’t, or they don’t'.

There's a whole world of women out here, who either don't need men to do anything for us at all [e.g. me] or women who don't need men to do anything for them but like their company and come to their own personalised arrangement about things like cutting the grass..

The world is full of variety, and full of possibilities.

I’m currently more inclined to take the advice of the NHS, than some people on the internet.

Yeah the NHS has never made any mistakes, that's why there have never been any scandals about maternity care, or Harold Shipman, or ect therapy.

FFS my mother's your height and has lived on her own for decades. She's in her mid 70s now and she still climbs ladders and mows her own lawn.

We're having to encourage her to call for help as she had a tumble last month.

She'd never dream of needing a man to do things she can do.

Lesbians must only drive tiny cars then 😃

How are you on taking the advice of somebody like Hilary Cass, * *Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians, Fellow of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, who is or has been chair of the British Academy of Childhood Disability, established the Rett Clinic for children, president of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, consultant at Great Ormond Street Hospital for 15 years and honorary physician in paediatric disability at the Guy's and St Thomas' NHS Foundation Trust?

I did say I could get a ladder out. It’s not necessary to have someone do the things that I either don’t want to do, or aren’t convenient (as in, I need ladders to change bulbs), but it’s easier and I don’t need the glory of doing it myself.

I lived alone between my ex husband and now partner - I didn’t die. But I don’t need the die on the hill of independence.

You're not wrong there! This is mine. I wear a little hat with a bell on it when I'm driving it.

You're missing the point, and derailing the thread, so I shall leave you to enjoy your highly gender-stereotyped peace

You mean the one who said children and young people shouldn’t be issued hormone therapy or puberty blockers?

I did say earlier developing bodies shouldn’t be altered, so…

I’m not.

Men = bad

Gender stereotypes = not real

NHS = even more bad

I think I get it!

Very jazzy 😂😂😂

She also said that socially transitioning children is not a neutral act.... so.

Oh don't go, Nameychangington, it's fun seeing how far we can regress - I thought 1970s, someone else went 1950s, and I think we'll be covering up the legs of pianos before long😄

im 5ft 1” and use a drive through car wash - no ladders needed and no performative ‘man doing a man job’ needed

For any short people who wash their own cars, my tip is that a mop comes in very handy for cleaning the roof

Why have a dog and bark yourself 🤷🏻‍♀️

The overall point that I was making is that gender constructs are real, and some people actually see areas of that as a benefit, and don’t reject gender ideology for the sake of the trans debate.

Well it's this or clean out the fishtank (or is that a blue job?) so I'll try again.

Men = bad No. Many men= delightful. Some men= dangerous . No way to tell by looking which is which so all stay out to keep women safe

Gender stereotypes = not real No. Gender stereotypes exist, but don't have to be lived down to. Liking dinosaurs doesn't make you male, it makes you a person who likes dinosaurs. Ditto make-up, dresses, glitter etc.

NHS = even more bad No. NHS= good, but not infallible

I was rejecting gender ideology before there even was a trans debate, for the sake of truth logic and social justice.

The trans debate is very recent, whereas being gender critical, i.e. critical of gender stereotyping, has being going on for centuries.

My views on gender norms are quite black and white - binary, if you will.

It’s a stereotype that men are dangerous. It’s a stereotype that women have maternal instinct. How do we accept those and reject the others?

Unless, I’m not sure - do you reject all of them? I think it’s clear that I don’t, so genuinely don’t know if others live in a completely non-stereotypical world!

As I said to the other poster - I’m not sure how we can reject all of them.

Gender constructs are real, and if you happen to like some of the ones that are stereotyped to your sex no issues. But they're not defining of your sex. Having xx chromosomes doesn't make you like cooking, and liking cooking doesn't make you a girl. That's regressive and damages all of us because absolutely no one 100% fits into the stereotypes for their sex.

No one rejects gender just for the sake of arguing about transpeople, do you actually think that? None of us went looking for this fight. We were very happy for there to be gender non conforming people, because feminists don't subscribe to gender stereotypes. But gender ideology completely relies on gender stereotypes - that if you like football and cars it makes you male, and if you like dolls and dresses it makes you female. That's how we ended up here, with 'woman' being changed from meaning 'an adult human females with any personality' to 'an adult human of either sex who likes girly stuff'.

I agree they are just clothes there are no gendered clothes. Hence why when you said dresses and long hair that is what suggested you implied it was a costume.

Why? Because a car without an engine is still a car. A man in a frock is still a man.

I don’t believe they are defining of your sex, or even determined by it.

I think, without going all Shania Twain, that you can feel like a woman. You can observe and live in the world with a female outlook, which can and often is different to the male lens.

I also believe that you can therefore feel that you are living in the wrong body, because you are looking through the wrong lens if you will.

I’ve always, maybe wrongly because I’m not trans, assumed that being trans felt like being trapped in the wrong body. Your sex and biology was telling you that you were male, but your brain and emotions were telling you otherwise. That must be horrendous. Locked in a body you’re not comfortable and don’t feel at home in.

I’m not big on the “single sex spaces” argument anyway, personally not interested in it though I have obviously seen and recognise that others are.

But, with no idea on how you’d police it, if someone feels the way I’ve just described above and they want to transition their gender identity to that of a female - I’m cool with letting them.

That doesn’t change biology, scientific fact, but I don’t see any value in making people feel worse.