Trans women are still women 2nd thread

[beetr00]

So very important for all sides.

Just wanted to continue this interesting and somewhat "provocative" debate

Also it has a tendency to be homophobic. A generation ago boys who liked those things (and other boys) were gay. Now we can avoid that issue by saying that they're actually girls.

I don’t agree with anyone making changes to their developing body, certainly not those that can’t be reversed.

I do think however that if an adult tells us they identify a certain way and they want to make informed choices about their own bodies, we should probably just believe them.

The point I was making is that had your daughter come to you and said she thought she was a boy, I think it’s a shame that some would shame her for feeling that way.

GENDER, is not biological sex.

Zero, progression @lifeturnsonadime cos, if you are BORN male, you can NEVER be a woman, sadly for those who would love to "identify" with us.💪

Gosh I must be a man then 🙄

only this weekend I have put out the bins, drilled holes in a wheelbarrow to make a planter, ripped up decking, painted a wall, put two flat pack chairs together, with a drill and cut the grass

where is my man of the year award

She did think she was a boy. I didn't shame her for it.

I just told her it's not possible and a girl can be anything they want to be.

Have you not heard about Keira Bell? Does it not bother you that if children are told lies by adults they will believe them.

I was never going to agree my daughter is a boy because it's just fucking nonsense.

They are - aren’t they?

Unless I live in some fictional reality where women and men aren’t different in any way.

If we were out, and for some reason in danger, my 6ft4 partner is better able (and IMO expected because of that) to protect us both.

I kinda feel that we can’t have it both ways. I don’t want to do the dirty jobs, and I’m not a massive bloke. If I’m going to benefit from the socially constructed ideas of gender norms, I can’t suddenly be furious that I’m living to them.

I take the car door opening, the being guided through crowded spaces, the protection from seedy men on nights out, the carrying of heavier bags. It would be fairly unreasonable to do all of that and then be like “what is gender 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️.”

If my daughter came to me and said she thought she was a boy, I wouldn't shame her but I absolutely would 100% not go along with the fiction that she is a boy or could ever be a boy. Being male or female is a biological fact, it's not a set of stereotypes about mowing lawns and cleaning toilets good lord.

Wear what you like, do what you enjoy, fancy who you fancy, you can never change sex.

Oh my god I've fallen asleep and woken up in the 1950s. 'Being guided through crowded spaces'? Fucking hell.

So if we just follow that further - if she was adamant she identified as male, and as an adult wanted to change her body… what then?

I don’t believe that any parent-child relationship is worth losing over that argument.

One of my employees has a non-binary child, who has changed their name. She accepts it, her father doesn’t - she only speaks to one of them.

You cannot change sex. It is not kind or helpful to people who are struggling to pretend that they can change sex, because they can't.

Would you agree with your anorexic daughter that she was fat? Get her liposuction and a treadmill?

What so men are apparently dangerous because they’re bigger than us, but can’t actually be any help or protection during dangerous situations because of the same reason?

I am also claustrophobic tbf 😂

But - I’ll take the being kept safe, thank you.

If a violent man, for example, was giving me hassle in a bar, you better believe I expect my partner to step in.

And what has that got to do with DIY, putting the bins out and washing the car

I don’t believe that being transgender is a mental illness. So that’s not comparable IMO.

You don't believe in gender dysphoria?

Are you all the same people who talk about the division of labour in the home? Women do it all and men laze about expecting their tea on the table?

We both work full time, we divide the labour. We divide it into things I don’t claim responsibility for doing, and things that I do - essentially.

On the list of things I don’t do, are manual labour and “dirty jobs.” It makes sense to me… to not do them.

What are you on about?

Are you saying that if you don't believe there are blue and pink jobs then you must be letting your man laze about?

And in my house when we divide the labour, I do the DIY and drive, DH vacuums and dusts.
I cook, he annoyingly enough shops, as do I. The strongest person does the heavy jobs. I used to be the jar opener as my hands were stronger than his. I am also more coordinated.

Division of Labour in your house may be along 1950s lines, but that’s to do with you, not sex or gender.

Do me a favour and reply all in one go?

I don’t see it in the same way as an eating disorder, no. Mainly because the actual NHS guidance is;

Treatment for gender dysphoria aims to help people live the way they want to, in their preferred gender identity or as non-binary.

I don’t think the treatment plan for ED is the same. In fact I know it isn’t, from personal experience. I didn’t identify as bulimic, and the treatment didn’t involve endorsing that dysmorphia. Living the way I wanted to would have involved ultimately, death.

Enabling trans people to live the way they want to, is not quite the same impact, and apart from some people not liking it has very little bearing on someone else’s life. It isn’t harmful to someone to let them live in the gender identity they want to.

Are you all the same people who talk about the division of labour in the home?

Er.. no, I think you are not wherever you think you are.

Hasn't it occurred to you at all that some of us choose not to have males in our homes at all, so they aren't there to hold doors open/do the DIY/steer us through crowds/protect us from other males?

You have a very limited view of Real Life as it is lived by the variety of women on here. I mean, very limited..

Do you know this will all end? It really will. The more women realise that harming their bodies won't make society perceive them as male. The more and more women who have serious health issues as a result of the cocktails of drugs that they are required to become patients of.

I would not disown my child but I would despair for them.

And there is no way on gods green earth I would ever support an ideology that says to lesbians and autistic girls that they must have been born wrong.

It's hideous.

No?

What I was saying is that Mumsnet is always on about the division of household labour and women running the house. I say that we divide labour and you say I live in the 50s.

The same people say men are inherently dangerous because they’re big and strong. I say “yeah that’s why mine does things that require that, and I would expect him to use those attributes to keep me safe,” and that’s wrong too.

Pick a side. They either need to do things, and have physical strength that we don’t, or they don’t. Can’t have it all ways.

How strong do you need to be to cut grass and wash a car

To be fair, reading some (not all) of the things I’ve seen on here in recent months, I have considered whether those who have such awful views of men have them living in their houses.

When people have suggested we should assume all men are dangerous, or that they don’t want to be around them ever, or made huge generalisations about male behaviour, I have thought “Do you feel that way about your husband?”

At least now I have something of an answer!

You can dress how you want and change your name but you cannot change sex. And the NHS is extremely captured by gender ideologues - perhaps you're not aware of the Tavistock scandal? Thinking you're the opposite sex and thinking you're fat when you're not are really not very different. Both are delusions.

I’m 5ft2, we drive a fairly large car. Genuinely can’t reach the top of it.

If you think I’m getting a ladder out to do something that he can do far more easily, for the sake of “I’m a strong independent woman 💪🏻” glory, you are mistaken.