Trans women are still women 2nd thread

[beetr00]

So very important for all sides.

Just wanted to continue this interesting and somewhat "provocative" debate

Do you not think that putting male rapists in female Prisons made the women prisoners feel worse

You cannot feel like a woman, because 'woman' isn't a feeling. It's a biological fact. It's like saying you feel like a brown eyed person, what do brown eyed people feel like?

No man can feel like a woman. He can only feel like what he imagines a woman to be. No one is in the wrong body, what do you think it is that's in the body? A soul ? That's a religious belief. You are your body. Many if not most adolescents feel 'wrong' in their body or wish it was otherwise, at some point don't they? That's normal. Plenty of older people too for that matter. Discomfort with your body or feeling it doesn't represent how you want to be is pretty normal. It doesn't mean you're in the wrong body. Plus, many of those who ID as trans do not have gender dysphoria. They have no problems with their body and no intention to change it.

I'm pleased you have the privilege not to care.about single sex spaces. For some women they are the only way to be able to participate in society. Respectfully, admission to being female and female spaces isn't yours to give away to men you've decided deserve it because they want it. And as you rightly note, there is no way to police which men feel as you describe, and which do not.

Finally, no one is trying to make anyone feel worse. Though some of the people who are distressed to find out that women are actual full humans with rights, had no interest at all in how we felt, when they took our stuff without asking. In fact, some of them gloated about it and told us to 'enjoy ur erasure'. So I'm not losing any sleep about them to be honest.

I’ve got absolutely no idea because I have never, and will never, be in prison. That’s not even something I’m happy to accept is a luxury viewpoint.

I am far more sympathetic to those who have cultural beliefs, or are victims of DV and feel unsafe around men generally.

I just feel that there has to be an outcome that works for everyone. Some people may not be happy/able to accept that TWAW, but they are people, and I think feelings on all sides should be taken into account.

I’m actually unsure how it can or will be policed at all tbh. In either the view that I have, because I don’t know how someone identifies, or yours because you may not always know someone’s biology.

Say for example a FTM trans person is in the bathroom, and on first glance you can’t tell that their birth sex was female. They’re tall, they have facial hair, testosterone has made them appear stronger.

I know people have answered this and said that FTM trans people don’t make us unsafe because they’re not men, and biological women are welcome etc.

But genuinely - will you ask? Would you stop someone in the toilets or changing room and question their sex, ask for evidence?

Are we back to if women won't let men in their spaces then they're going to have to share with transmen (who are all 6ft and passing according to some posters on an earlier thread)

Absolutely … biological women have been trolled for for too long … and there are many Transwomem who just want to get on with their lives
my youngest son was a carer for the elderly and males were not allowed to care for the ladies and rightly so ! .. This will save a hell of a lot of anxiety for female patients etc who are already vulnerable anyway ! … If a biological man decided to wear a dress etc and be a “woman” just because he can …then well … just absolutely 100% wrong !

Genuinely, it was a question.

We will have to, and I personally was more comfortable with the alternative.

Evidently you weren’t, and that’s fine - but are you going to ask those trans men what’s in their pants.

We can employ genital inspectors

Actually if you give a female child puberty blockers then cross sex hormones they will end up being shorter than if they'd gone through normal female puberty. A post-pubertal human cannot gain height without drastic orthopaedic surgery as the growth plates in limb bones fuse at the end of puberty. So your hypothetical transman will most likely still be of below average height compared to other males, and will still be easily identified as female due to their female pelvis determining the way they walk.

TLDR - the person you are describing is vanishingly unlikely to ever exist.

I have actually met several transmen, and every one was shorter and skinnier than me (I am 5'3" and size 12). Extremely few transmen are of average male height and build, truly. And even if there were the occasional transmen who is tall and hefty, there are so many other ways we clock each other as male or female. It's part of how our species has survived!

Your lack of compassion for women in prison is no credit to you. The vast, vast majority of women in prison have been victims of male violence - the vast majority have had a significant non accidental head injury. They are some of the most vulnerable women in our society.

But even if they weren't, even if every last one was a heartless evil scumbag, their imprisonment is their punishment. They haven't been sentenced to be raped by men with special identities to pay for their crimes.

The fact that you have more compassion and more interest in seeing people like these https://terfisaslur.com/ as people, with feelings than you have for imprisoned women says much about you.

This is my experience.

I've never met a trans man who is taller than me, I'm 5 foot 5.

I've met a few tall trans women. With massive feet and hands.

Funny that.

I can't remember the last time I shaved my legs. I've never had my 'nails done' and I put out the bins.
Holy shit, does that mean I'm a man??!!
50+ years on this earth and no one thought to tell me. I'm calling my mum right now!

@SleeplessInWherever

your view that trans people are trapped in the “wrong body” and TW just “feel” female really isn’t borne out in statistics - 95% choose to keep their penis and many choose not to take hormones. I’d have thought being able to have a massive boner was a downer to a true identity as a woman if it really is always about unhappiness with one’s body over stereotypes, but unfortunately there are a subset of TW for whom dressing as a woman but being able to have a boner in the ladies is part of the appeal. Stonewall supported the idea that cross dressers belong in the ladies. You prefer making these guys happy over protecting females?

This is why things were better for all 15 years ago before the stonewall nonsense - those who had reassigned their gender generally planned to go all the way and were a quiet presence in some female spaces and would not have dreamt of intruding on others so it was possible to ignore them and go about one’s business. Those TW would not have claimed they were biological women, they just would hope to live peacefully and pass where they could. unfortunately, it’s not possible to go back now.

Yes, they are people, who are men.

Policing - why should it be necessary at all? Why can't we just trust men, of any kind, to stay out of women's toilets? They shouldn't need a SC ruling to do so, they should just do it anyway, our of respect for the long-established norm that men don't go use the women's toilets, and vice versa. It worked OK for ages, there's no reason why it can't work like that again.
All it needs is respect.

"Trans" does not exist. It's a delusion as part of a mental disorder. Nobody is born in the wrong body. Loads of little boys do girl things & vice versa. It's part of normal development. Many little boys will wear dresses & even makeup if given the chance. Many little girls like playing with guns. It does mean they have this "trans" delusion just that they are normal children growing up normally.

Nobody knows what it feels like to be a woman or to be a man. A man identifying as a woman is just a man who wants to adopt certain regressive female stereotypes because they have the delusion that somehow they got issued with the wrong body.

Of course there are gendered clothes.Walk into any clothing shop if you are unsure. Or just Google it.

Somethings are stereotypically male, some female. You asked for some examples and I gave them. Does that mean everyone conforms to those stereotypes? Of course not but some people do.

The reason it’s crappy to call a transgender person by their birth gender is because they don’t relate to that gender. Hence why tgey have rejected it. Now not feeling male doesn’t mean you are female but it does mean you might be transgender. It’s no great hard ship to view a transgender person as a trans person.

I don’t believe in “gender” as distinct from sex. Sex is what matters. Don’t presume to impose your belief system on people who think it’s fashionable toxic nonsense.

Well firstly, I wasn’t looking to Stonewall for life advice to begin with, so I’m not really interested in what they said.

There’s a difference between cross dressers and TW, they’re not the same and they don’t have the same motivation. Like you rightly point out.

This whole thing also excludes the people you’re describing - the ones who were just hoping to live peacefully. How is it fair to punish those people for something they haven’t done?

You can’t sit with us anymore, because some completely random men who you don’t know or associate with did something you weren’t involved in? Hardly reasonable.

In the 21st century you think there’s “an obvious reason” that women don’t cut the grass, do DIY, put the bins out or wash the car? What is that reason?

The only reason I don’t cut the grass is because we don’t have any.

There’s an obvious reason that I don’t do certain things, I don’t recall saying you had to do anything.

This whole thing also excludes the people you’re describing - the ones who were just hoping to live peacefully. How is it fair to punish those people for something they haven’t done?
You can’t sit with us anymore, because some completely random men who you don’t know or associate with did something you weren’t involved in? Hardly reasonable.

Perhaps because those males really shouldn't have been in those spaces, to begin with.

Having female only spaces is not 'punishing' males. Until the last 10-15 years, we had male toilets/facilities and female toilets/facilities. Not all males assault and rape. Yet there is a reason we kept all males out. How is having female only spaces (when males also have male only spaces) punishing males? What is it that people cannot wrap their heads around about female only spaces? Why is that such a difficult concept for some?