"Trans women ARE biological women"

[TangenitalContrivance]

I see this argument and comment more and more the last few weeks and hugely over the last 3 days.

For example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1k1tliv/trans_women_are_biological_women/

This statement, and the comments underneath it absolutely baffle me.

The approach, one that I am sure will only work with a minority of the people who said TWAW, is to undermine the definition of words, yet again, and deliberately cloud the water when it comes to speaking clearly and using terms that everyone agrees with

I have seen it said in more places than Reddit however, and by respected people

Since when are men the most marginalised in society? If anything the overreach of the trans rights lobby only proves the extreme privilege of men, that their sexual desires have been allowed to take precedence over women's rights to safety and privacy.

There's nothing wrong with me. Look I'm 76, I've seen a lot of life and stood up for women's rights. But save your anger for men who attack women. This isn't genuine trans people going about their lives. It's the AGP's you need to go after and more than that the rapists and murderers who aren't bothering to go to the trouble of putting a dress and make up on, they don't need to - they're doing it daily in their everyday men's clothes. This whole thing had got so twisted. You can mock me as I'm sure you will but I do have experience of life, of trans people, and men. It's just my view as your views are yours.

And your method for distinguishing between a genuine male person-of-gender vs an AGP vs a nice man vs a man with nefarious intentions is...

?

@CatrionasWhiskers Don't you get it? It is all very well to "be inclusive and kind" but seriously, if we say in law that trans women who are male, are a kind of women and should be protected as women under equality law, that literally erases women. It makes the what a woman is meaningless and as a result erodes women's rights and puts them in danger.

Any male claiming to be a woman regardless if he passes or not, is gay or not, is agp or not is still a man and should be treated as such under the law and should not have access to women's spaces, sports or representation.

What is your 100% foolproof system for distinguishing and therefore screening out the masqueraders and vicious misogynists from the lovely old skool transsexuals from female single sex spaces before a single girl or woman is harmed?

Describe it, put it in place everywhere and then, just maybe, we talk. But until then you have absolutely no fucking right whatsoever to give away women's consent on their behalf. None.

How do you tell the difference between an AGP and a genuine trans person going about their life?
You can't and that's the point!!

You realise womens spaces are for dignity and privacy, not just safety, right? It's not just about being raped. It's about wanting to be away from the male gaze.

You are entitled to your own opinions not your own facts.

Trans women - are men - fact.

Men do not belong in female spaces

How do you make a rule which lets the genuine trans people in and keeps the AGPs out?

Many women don't care about the genuineness or feelings or inner thoughts or agendas of the man in their space wanting to be there while they get undressed or do something intimate like strip searches.

They don't care if he's lovely.

They don't want him there at all.

Women's lives and choices should NOT be predicated on the needs of a man. And the law has confirmed this. Anyone not holding the belief that men are more valuable than women and have the birthright to use women who should submit to him, would be able to understand this. And this conversation has been going on for years while women explained the issues and nobody cared - now finally the law has spoken and the matter's closed. It's over. These conversations are no longer relevant. Men don't get to use women's spaces, this is not negotiable.

Women delighted to be resources for the therapeutic care of men can go and use unisex spaces with men to their hearts content and I wish them well.

If that person has XY chromosomes he's a man. End of story.

It matters because this bogus argument ("they transition to ogle naked women") is brought up to justify denying them access to women's toilets/changing rooms.

FFS. Women don't just want space away from men because they might fancy us. It's not about sexual attraction otherwise women would feel uncomfortable sharing spaces with lesbian women. It's about male privilege and entitlement and women wanting spaces and respite from that.

Yes we want to be away from the ones who perve on us or claim to be driven to uncontrollable urges by our naked bodies, but we also want space away from men because they talk over us, jump into our conversation, come up and want to talk to us when we are busy or just not interested in devoting our time their way, lean over us, take up more physical space than us and subconsciously expect us to get out of their way, leave shared spaces in a mess because it's someone else's job to sort it out...

Women, of course, may do all of that too, but nothing like as often. Having women-levels of it to deal with is manageable. Having man-levels of it imposed onto women is forcing women to carry a weight through the world to no benefit for us simply for the convenience and comfort of men.

this bogus argument ("they transition to ogle naked women") is brought up to justify denying them access to women's toilets/changing rooms.

You're really cross that the stacks and piles of evidence about men's sexual offending in women's spaces - by men who were as trans as anybody else as well as potential chancers - is given by women as a reason to have the right in law to privacy from men.

Righto.

You do you.

However this is all academic, the time for these conversations was several years ago, and this rather odd argument was made many times. It's nothing new or unthought of. The evidence in multiple cases of harms to women have been given and are still on going (the Peggie case, Darlington Nurses, Sarah Summers), but the law has been found to be sex based.

I can see you're intractable so my views are surplus to requirements here. Different groups of people have always been discriminated against, think gay people who were mocked, attacked, and often hated. But things grow and change. I think young people are not going to go along with these ideas, it already shows they're not and that gives me hope. Life would be so boring without the vibrant mix of people we have here. I'll bow out and look forward to the changes today's youth will bring.

But don't you want to enlighten everybody with your method? Just think of how many genuine people-of-gender would benefit!

@CatrionasWhiskers Many young people are sick of the gender woo shit to be honest. Do you even understand that many of us are lesbians and / or gender non conforming? Unfortunately for us it doesn't matter how kind we want to be or how inclusive, none of that changes the reality of sex based oppression or discrimination, the reality of male violence towards women and the fact that women's sex based rights are something we need to hold on to not just for ourselves but the generations of women that will come after us.

You look forward to a future where that is eroded and women's rights mean nothing having been over taken by men's rights. I hope one day you are able to wake up from the fantasy land you seem to inhabit and comprehend just how wrong you are on this matter and how damaging to women's rights and safety voices like yours are.

Look if you're good with women being vibrantly raped and excluded and unable to have services and to have no right of consent to not undress in front of a man then you do you.

Btw some of us here ARE gay thanks, and are bloody grateful to now be allowed to meet with other lesbians without being forced to have men present. Or mocked and attacked and told we should be raped by GI believers for daring to want to be homosexual and decline 'lady dick'.

I do like the "kindness" of "all the wrongthinkers will be dead soon"

And this God-awful future where women will gladly embrace male supremacism and the rights of men to use them as resources without consent.

Wtf is WRONG with people?!

We can have a vibrant group of people without men who identify as trans being in single sex spaces.

I wonder why you feel the need to put the wishes of these vibrant men above the needs of vulnerable women?

She is deeply brainwashed.

Funny how they all express the pious hope that we'll all die soon and then bow out, missing the requests that they share their foolproof system for making sure women and girls aren't harmed.

It happens every. Single. Time.

Such an odd coincidence.

What adult man regardless of how they identify would WANT to get changed in the same room as their Mother or Granny?

Sweetheart. Gay people just want(ed) to be allowed to be gay.

All that anyone else had to do for that to happen was stop telling them they couldn't have relationships, clubs, marriages and so on.

Trans people (activists anyway) however want everyone else to redefine ourselves to fit into their prejudices about men and women.

They demand that everyone else must agree with them that

1. we all feel some weird inner womanness or manness, when in fact trans people just assume we do because that is how they think about men and women

1. the reason we have single sex spaces is not, in fact, because women's experiences of sexism and male abuse and encrouchment caused women to organise to get them so we were less disadvantaged in male-dominated society, but in order that people who feel wommanyness on the inside can all pee together, and people who feel mannyness on the inside can all pee together

1. women, despite having clear biological differences to men and despite having a distinct social history of marginalisation and oppression that was not shared by men, don't actually exist in a biological, social or legal sense

1. the challenges that women face because they are female-bodied do not justify having female-only supports

That's not "a vibrant mix of people" - that's reducing the wonderful variety that is humanity and putting people right back into "this is how men think, this is how women think".

I don't know about you, but I'd much rather as a women be seen as person with a particular type of body than as a person with a particular type of mind. Because my body is a basic truth, a fact in the world, but I can have any type of mind.

So no, it's not just like gay rights, or just like anti-racism, or any other lazy equivalence where all that was asked for is to stop treating a marginalised group as lesser. Trans Rights Activism is its own thing, and it is not demanding acceptance, it is demanding obedience and subservience to sexist and oldfashioned ideas about men and women, and to women giving up rights and protections and even the language they need to tell their own stories.