Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

Er pull the other one it's got bells on

I want the peaceful and kind and gentle trans people I know to be able to live their ordinary lives in their chosen gender in a way that doesn’t hurt others, without being harassed or rejected, or humiliated by being forced to use the toilets of their birth gender.

I'm going to unpick this a bit.

Firstly, it's not about the bloody toilets. They have just become a stupid symbol probably because they are one of the first single sex rules children encounter so "winning" the toilets has psychological and cultural significance. It's about the right of female people to say at times we need physical or cultural spaces away from male because male people encrouch on us and speak over us in ways that harm us physically and diminish our social power and agency.

Ok, with that out of the way:

Why the assumption that using the toilets of one's birth sex is "humiliating"? That just - isn't a thing, or at least it wasn't. The only reason it became humilating to trans people is because it broke the lie/fantasy that they were the opposite sex. It's not the use of the toilet that is the cause of the humiliation, it's the being exposed in the act of their fantasy/lie. The fix is super simple - don't lie about your sex, and the humiliation of being known to be your sex goes away.

Living in a "chosen gender" is just adopting your own sexist projections about the opposite sex. It's not a real thing, it is an insulting and reductive performance. We should be broadening what is socially acceptable for each sex in terms of traditionally gendered social roles not pandering to the idea that liking things coded to the opposite sex means you mentally are the oppsite sex!

My DH happens to be a peaceful and kind and gentle man with a build that would blow away in a strong breeze, the type of bloke that some men like to pick on because it helps them feel powerful. He is no threat to anyone, male or female. Given the option I'm sure he also would prefer to use the ladies because it's a little less intimidating and an awful lot cleaner. What is the objective difference between a peaceful and kind and gentle man and a peaceful and kind and gentle trans women that justifies the latter coming in but not the former?

Nope, wasn't coming for you at all.

Maybe I misinterpreted 'I suppose a middle ground would be a third space or an open category.' as a genuine question. Or maybe it's rhetorical? Either way, it's kind of a moot suggestion/wondering/whatever because the bottom line is that some transwomen, particularly those of the TWAW variety have no interest in this.

Can only apologise for (my) chemo-brain + menopause brain fog.

"Fictionalcharacter28 · Today 23:17
I think denying the identity of trans woman is inherently hurtful. If there's really a need to distinguish based on chromosomes surely we can use the terms cis woman/trans woman, rather than calling people 'men' who clearly don't identify as such"

We don't have to agree with other people's beliefs in order to get along. We certainly can't compel others to agree with our belief structures and threaten them when they don't.

If some people are so fragile that anyone disagreeing with their ideological beliefs causes them hurt, then that really is a problem with their self esteem that they need to solve themselves.

I'm certainly not going to be using the insulting 'cis' - it's altogether unnecessary and the term woman works for me and the whole sex class. The men who view themselves as women can call themselves transwomen if they want. I suspect some will call me far worse than cis.

‘Why does it bother women if men are in their toilet or changing room …or taking their place in a sports team, or in the bed in a hospital ward, or in a cell with a trapped woman?’ Why indeed.

But it only worked because women and girls who were distressed by those male people's presence didn't complain. Those female people who were distressed have been dismissed, those male people should never have been allowed in. Female people were not asked whether they consented.

From my reading, it seems like the male doctors of those early male people with transgender identities gave those male people 'permission' to use female single sex spaces.

Shock - you do know that some women fancy other women? They might be looking at you in the changing room (clutches pearls). Or fancy you when you are putting on your lipstick in the female toilets??
And sometimes women are violent. What are the percentages of women violent against women vs trans women violent against women. Both very rare I would say. The vast vast majority of trans women are decent people just getting on with their lives. The senario you are implying - a violent man doning a dress to get into a women’s toilet or changing room at the gym is extraordinarily rare and frankly extremely obvious. The assumption that trans women as a general group are just out to attack women is the most prejudice belief I have heard in a very long time.

Because they're men.

Of course it's possible to be a feminist and have empathy for trans people today @HoundOfTheBasketballs.

For me, I'm delighted and relieved for women and girls.😊 I haven't really thought about trans people much. I wish them well and hope they find their places of safety and peace.🙏 But I'm not prepared to sacrifice the safety and peace of women and girls for them.🤷‍♀️

Yes, it was rhetorical, that tends to be my M.O.! I'm well aware that reasonable suggestions for compromise are treated as if we'd committed literal violence towards trans people.

What a homophobic post!

Just a minute though, I will be back with the Ministry of Justice statistics for male people in the Uk committing sex offences.

Yes, but what they don’t do is commit 98 percent of sex crimes. You’d also be better able to fight off a woman than a man in the unlikely event something did happen.

It’s not transwomen specifically, it’s ALL men!

Why is there a specific hurt about this kind of ‘identifying as’?

There are several cases of people who have, apparently genuinely and heartfeltly - identified as a different race from the one they are. Why isn’t it hurtful when they are challenged, when people won’t go along with their own personal sense of self?

You cannot be a feminist and believe womanhood is based on looks and behaviours.

It’s staggering that some people seem to believe that as soon as a man announces a trans identity, his male threat level suddenly vanishes and he’s no more a risk than your average woman. By what process does this happen?

@Thegreatestdancer You need to go and look at those statistics about offenders and violence that I linked to earlier.

You are incorrect that men identifying as trans women have a lower incidence of violence.

You are also incorrect that women commit violent acts at anywhere the same rate - and this is even when the crime statistics have been badly skewed by wrong sex category reporting for some years now.

But this is specifically about trans women.

‘Denying the identity of TW is inherently hurtful’ but it’s not hurtful for women to be called ‘cis’, a meaningless term coined by trans activists and something designed to make women a subset of their own sex class?

If you really don’t understand the very real need to distinguish between men and women then I can only assume you have just arrived on planet earth and are completely unaware of the epidemic of male violence against women, that has always existed. And please, please don’t tell me that TW aren’t included in that, as there is Home Office data that shows that trans identified men offend at a higher rate than men in general.

Facts don’t suit everyone but TW are men.

Indeed. Or my no make upped self, clad in a football shirt, yelling obscenities at the telly last night was a man. As opposed to my made up self in a nice top sending polite emails today.

Oddly, or rather not, both were and are a woman.

That’s not an example of ‘it working’ that I’m referring to.

Im about as TERF as you can get. I have sown the T-shirt, worn the T-shirt, promoted and sold the T-shirt. Even been burned by the T-shirt on many occasion.

Doesnt mean I don’t have empathy. One of the things that has upset me the most about this is young people and children; half a generation really - was sold a lie that was unsustainable. Some of those people will have chosen to transition based on what responsible adults and the law told them would be the new ‘social contract’. It’s been like watching a decade long very depressing slow motion train wreck.

Of course.

Who are men, and who actually have the highest sex offending statistics of any group in the UK if you want to get right down to it.

Question: how can you tell the difference between a violent man donning a dress to get into a woman's space and a trans woman? What makes it "obvious" when they walk through the door?

Yeah, I'm afraid those statistics are even worse

💯

Do you know any trans women?