Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

So being non binary is a choice that you need to apply for and sit exams for?!
Who'da thunk it!!

You know ... the one about tolerance and respecting personal choice 🤔
Works both ways though.

Thanks for this. You say “they” like it was all of them though. Surely the majority of trans people aren’t the ones calling women bigots, that’s just a noisy and offensive minority. Or maybe I’m more naive than I thought.

But they have the that level of tolerance already. They’re free to dress as they like and live their life how they want. We just don’t have to believe the same things they do about their identity or allow it to trump our own beliefs and protections.

But however strong their feelings might be, they’re still a subset of their own sex.

As for sexual preferences being valid, my favourite part of the judgment was the bit about lesbians having the right to meet in single sex groups.

I know lesbian groups who have had to go underground in order to keep males out, & theoretically lesbian dating apps like Her have allowed trans-identifying males for ages. I’ve heard that anyone who complains is liable to be thrown off. Who’s being validated there?

Same with my teens. The bubble has truly burst.

Teens, of course, being frequent posters on Mumsnet.

have many of you trans friends been assaulted by feminists?

if not you might want to make 'be kind' appeals to the people who are assaulting them

There is a massive difference though.

People who are same sex attracted were never demanding other people to believe those people were something they were materially not. And they were asking only to be given the same opportunities as heterosexual people.

People who claim to have a transgender identity are demanding that other people treat them as if they are something they are materially not. They demand that people act as if they are something they materially are not. Plus they demand additional privileges because of that. for example, male people with a transgender identity demand to have not only access to male sex based provisions but also female single sex provisions.

The problem is that while some trans people are happy to accept the reality that TWANW and live their lives accordingly, a very vocal group are not.

And when people say “TWAW- no debate” they demand access to women’s sport/ prisons/ rape centres/ changing rooms etc.

Some very brave women have fought back against this and the ruling today has clarified that TWANW legally.

If your trans friends are in the first group who already accept reality, then nothing changes. Their rights have not changed, the legal position has just been clarified. If they are in the second…

I don’t hate trans people. For the most part I couldn’t care less what they call themselves/ wear/ do etc. I just think that when sex matters, it really matters and am very happy the law has been clarified to keep women’s single sex spaces, single sex!

Yep, as I said upthread, the pleas for kindness only ever go one way, and it’s not towards the violent misogynistic men.

Of course it's possible, and I do have empathy for some vulnerable trans people who have been misled and exploited by the activists. The problem is though that quite a few trans people didn't have any empathy for women, and set out to destroy our rights even though it was pointed out to them there was a problem. They compounded this by dragging children into it.

It took a SC judgement to stop them because others, trans and non trans, either spinelessly stood by and let the activists run riot across policy and institutions, or enthusiastically participated because it was a fashionable way of indulging their misogyny.

I think this is a two way street though. Apart from the local Jehovah’s Witnesses (who are very polite), I’ve never had anyone from a different religion insist that adopt their beliefs or that I behave the way their religion dictates and otherwise declare me a bigot. I can wear immodest clothing, I can eat pork, I can talk about the prophet Mohammed without following it with PBUH and all the religious people I’ve met are ok with that because it follows my beliefs.

Trans people are (on the whole) not okay if I use the pronouns I see fit to describe them if they perceive that as “misgendering”, and a lot are not okay if I don’t welcome trans women into women’s spaces. I’m not welcome in all areas of my local mosque and synagogue and I’m totally okay with that (be it because of my beliefs or my sex) because I respect their beliefs. Trans people don’t often respect my (scientifically backed) beliefs that sex is immutable.

And I think that’s why we see less tolerance for trans people, as they’re much less tolerant of gender critical people than religious people are of atheists.

Sorry, this is incredibly naive but perhaps you haven't followed the last decade closely. Women have said all those nice, kind, things and have been met with death and rape threats, doxing, stalking, physical violence, loss of employment and much more.

The men (and sometimes women) activists who are deeply invested in trans rights have proven to be some of the most vicious and unpleasant people in existence.

Those activist will give women no quarter and have never been the slightest bit interested in debate or compromise and they have displayed sociopathic levels of disinterest in safety, dignity, privacy and fairness for women and girls. They would rather burn every single aspect of women's rights to the ground than ever show even the tiniest bit of empathy towards our feelings and our realities.

I'm sure you mean well but in the face of what has been, at the very minimum, a 10 year hard slog for women to reassert the rights that were always ours it feels insulting to suggest none of the women who have suffered through the things I mention in my first paragraph had ever considered just 'asking nicely'.

Gender dysphoria has been a recognised mental illness for a very long time, with pretty clear patterns of onset and frequent desistance. Only in the most persistent cases would it progress to surgery. The current 'wave' of trans subverts that long standing trend in a way which is pretty evidently attributable only to social contagion. This is also evident through the comparatively low levels of surgery - for want of a better phraseology, most men claiming to feel like women still want to keep their dick, suggesting paraphilia is really what is going on. You should probably look into the actual facts before you make any more decisions on how you 'balance' your stance on this.

A couple of people have mentioned this now. I think it’s really valid that women shouldn’t be expected to “fix” trans people’s problems for them. And yes, definitely men could and absolutely should do more. There’s space for everyone to support a move towards a more equal society.

I assume you are campaigning to get rid of all sex segregation then?

A more equal society is one where women’s rights and protections aren’t handed of to males.

Teens here say that Mumsnet is full or right wing bullshit. In this area they are spot on
And those same Teens are going to be voting soon if TwoTier gets his way.

That's great as long as you remember women are equal too. It seems people rarely do - women have equal rights to respect, dignity and safety. We are not simply support or assistance humans.

Why the hell is it a woman’s job to ensure men in wigs and dresses aren’t laughed at or insulted by other men? Women are laughed at, cat called, assaulted and insulted every single day and men as a class seem pretty cool with that. Women make their lives smaller every day because of men. We might not run after dark for fear of being assaulted, are leered at and endure disgusting comments on our bodies from men. We walk home with keys sticking out of our fists and are scared in cabs. I don’t see the trans lobby worrying their pretty little heads about us. Nope. Men can deal with their own problems.

We have now been reliably told by academics that there is no 'medical problems' associated with being transgender (Dr Vassili Crispi was one of those academics). Therefore, we can only conclude that the only thing that connects all people with transgender identities is their philosophical belief about themselves.

What other group does society give additional privileges to based on their philosophical belief? And since in recent times was society so pressured to support and act in compliance with a group's philosophical belief to the extent that this group has been able to dictate?

Exactly. I’m a vegan. If I campaigned to ban anyone from eating meat in public because it upsets me deeply and it’s contrary to my deeply held beliefs, I’d be given very short shrift, and rightly so. My beliefs should not be able to take away other people’s rights.

@AndImBrit

we see less tolerance for trans people, as they’re much less tolerant of gender critical people than religious people are of atheists.

Love it.

And yet the post above yours comes from someone who clearly doesn't think the same way.