Hahahaha!!!!

[DialSquare]

I love JKR!

You prove my point.

There are years and years of conversation on FWR going back way before Trump's administration. Thousands of posts from women exploring the various aspects of sex and gender and the impact of the rise of genderist populism on people born female, which I know you have read and indeed contributed to.

That is what is there in black and white for anyone reading honestly.

To suggest that FWR is somehow "shift[ing] the ground towards the Hard Patriarchy" is farcical. If your "feminism" can't support women's needs unless they accept the demands of trans identifying men regardless of how much damage those men do, it ain't feminism, it's just taking the language of feminism to justify the continuation of men's cultural and social domination of women (original sex based meaning).

So sure, I accept that FWR in your mind is entirely encapsulated in a handful of threads from the past month so expressing approval for one element of Trump's policies, but again that says more about your bias than what is teally being talked about here, because even those threads in reality qualified any approval with condemnation of pretty much everything else he stands for and recognition that his motives do not align with feminism even if in this case one element of the outcome has been good for women (original sex based meaning).

My opinion is arrived at after years of reading threads here, and seeing the lie of the land.

It is arrived at after reading threads celebrating the defacement of pride flags, which frightens my community.

It is arrived at after reading threads celebrating Posie Parker/ Kellie Jay Keen who calls for landlords to refuse housing to trans people and employers to refuse jobs to trans people.

And yes it is arrived at after reading all the apologists' defences of Trumps policies which gravely harm women.

I am not so myopically obsessive with trans people that I can overlook the broader substantial harms that are being defended here.

But you are myopically obsessed with dismissing women's voices as "shift[ing] the ground towards the Hard Patriarchy" because you don't like them.agreeing with a single aspect Trump's actions (not with Trump himself but simply with one aspect of his policies) even if they roundly condemn others.

I read this board as well. I remember the posts you refer to. I'm not denying that. But your posts give the impression this is is a representative set and it really really isn't. The "defacing the flag" - actually lesbian women removing the ttans element to restore the original Pride flag - was a single event at a demo months ago. That KJK comment was at least a yearcago, maybe more. Yet the same handful of examples come up again and again from the same handful of posters as "proof" that women who care about the political, social.and legal rights of female people are all just faking it to advance some hidden right wing agenda.

Meanwhile, in the years since KJK said something about trans identifying people being potentially problematic tenants and in the months since some women cut the trans elements out of the Pride flag as a protest, and even in the weeks since Trump attacked PP, the examples of trans identifying men behaving in ways that harm wmen or women's interests keep.stacking up.

Maybe I'm wrong and you are deliberately and knowingly misrepresenting FWR, but I prefer to think better of you and believe you are describing a genuine misunderstabding due to projecting your own obsession and bias.

I’m in complete agreement with @suggestionsplease1. I’ve also been reading FWR for a number of years and the shift of opinion has been remarkable (and somewhat shocking). It does reflect (rather than defy) wider societal shifts though.

This wouldn’t surprise me at all, it’s just more attention seeking behaviour from people who are too absorbed in social media and need several labels to attach to themselves.

I have not read one thread where any of that is being supported, and just as an aside, we in the UK can’t support the great orange moron in anything as he’s not our president.

You really need to come up with a more convincing argument than ‘anyone who disagrees with gender identity/multiple sexual identities is right wing’, it’s old, has been discredited and we’re a bit bored by it.

I’m surprised you haven’t read any of the articles that are freely available where unions have actively discriminated against women in recent times because they don’t want to share changing rooms with TIM’s, which is their right in law, because they refuse to subvert reality and parrot the TWAW mantra. You surely must have heard of Sandie Peggie and the Darlington nurses? Just two examples of the complete opposite of what you say should/could/would happen.

The fact is, these ‘identity’ policies help no one, they detract from real things that need to be addressed in the workplace, and for the vast majority of people appear to be completely pointless. Women are constantly being discriminated against for being women, overall they still earn less than men, and take on the lions share of the childcare and domestic duties. 3 women a week are murdered in the UK by men, how about we devote some time to preventing that from happening, instead of endlessly discussing people’s sexual proclivities? Or would that also be right wing and Trump supporting?

I disagree. I'm completely and utterly bored by it and now regard it as either evidence of childish magical thinking, lack of intelligence, or active bad faith.

But you're probably more patient than me😀

The rainbow badges and lanyards are a direct result of commercialisation (via Stonewall schemes and indexes which organisations have paid to be involved in, so that they can climb ranking/rating schemes) and a ferocious political agenda made to look like spontaneous celebration which is anything but… I’m re-reading 1984 and it’s giving me shades of the forced compliance of the 2 Minutes Hate. Rainbow badges have started to give me the creeps because it has come to represent societal manipulation to me…

@LadyBracknellsHandbagg

You really need to come up with a more convincing argument than ‘anyone who disagrees with gender identity/multiple sexual identities is right wing’, it’s old, has been discredited and we’re a bit bored by it.

That’s not quite what was said though, was it?

Completely agree with this, it is forced compliance. Women have been told for centuries that we’re either mad, hysterical, stupid and now right wing if we don’t subscribe to what men want and in particular this current madness.

I’m beginning to think there’s some sort of coordinated plan that’s creeping in with some posters on here, referencing Trump and trying to guilt women, yet again, to be kind and just comply. I’m with JKR on this, I don’t have any more f*cks to give.

It’s exactly what was said and if you think we don’t see it then you underestimate the women on here.

@Couleur

‘Well actually, the evidence is there in black and white for anyone who cares to, for eg. look over the Mumsnet FWR threads supporting sex offender 'grab 'em by the pussy' Trump's intention to defund Planned Parenthood, the primary organisation in the US that supports women with birth control, sexual health, STD testing and treatment, abortions’

Is there where it wasn’t said?! 🤦‍♀️

Quite.

It's characteristic of trans ideology that they bemoan lesbian visibility in one breath, whilst agreeing that they can be men in another.

I’m beginning to think there’s some sort of coordinated plan that’s creeping in with some posters on here, referencing Trump and trying to guilt women, yet again, to be kind and just comply. I’m with JKR on this, I don’t have any more fcks to give.*

I've been on this forum a while now, mainly lurking, and the above is blindingly obvious. I actually find it reassuring in a way. This is all they've got.

(For any of our overseas visitors, don't forget that even the Conservative party in the UK is way to the left of many right-wing parties in other countries.)

There are very many lesbians who don’t wish to use their lesbianism as an identity. They are simply adult human females who are sexually attracted to adult human females. If a man approaches them in a bar and propositions them, they may not want to make a statement of their identity or sexual preferences. They should simply be able to say ‘no thanks’ and the man should accept that and leave them alone.

That same lesbian may wish to assert her rights and identity as a lesbian in certain situations, as she sees fit, and that is absolutely her right.

I believe we should be moving towards a society where anyone can simply say ‘no thanks’ and the potential suitor will accept that with good grace. I don’t think identity politics is helping us to achieve this. We need to get to a point where no one feels they have to say ‘I’m asexual’ or ‘I have a boyfriend/girlfriend’ etc and education about boundaries and consent are vital to this, as is proper justice for sexual harassment, assault and rape.

Women shouldn’t have to ‘add context’ or explain anything to a man when turning him down, a polite ‘no thank you’ is surely sufficient, we don’t owe them anything. Again, you are pushing this ‘be kind’ mantra, which is in itself misguided.

People who proudly vocalise that they are lesbian or asexual etc, can, by broadening societal awareness, tolerance and understanding of different experiences and identifies, bring about positive changes for the whole of society that everyone benefits from

There are swathes of people for whom sexual orientation, and/or lifestyle choices that are categorised by some as an identity, sit outside value judgment. They think it is neither a good or bad thing that someone is gay, straight, monogamous, polyamorous, gender conforming/ non conforming. They have little or no interest, so long as no one is being harmed. I expect the majority of FWR fall into this group.

When you sit in this group, the concept of being proud of these characteristics is a misnomer. Why would you be proud or not proud? The same applies to be ashamed? Framing the issue as people with the characteristics being somewhere on a continuum of shame to pride is unnecessarily creating room for upset.

You do realise people can agree with other humans on stuff and disagree with them on other stuff? You can agree with KJK’s stance on women’s rights and disagree with her views on denying housing to trans women (unless that housing was specifically deemed female only of course). You can agree with Trump’s stance on no males in women’s sports and disagree with him on pretty much everything else.

Not sure why that’s so hard to understand or needs pointing out. You seem to come on these boards just to imply things that haven’t happened.

That same lesbian may wish to assert her rights and identity as a lesbian in certain situations, as she sees fit, and that is absolutely her right

absolutely

i see what others mean though….its like when a man chats you up and you say you are not interested thats one thing

saying i have a boyfriend or i am married or i am gay or i am asexual suggests ‘i would say yes if only i wasn't AB or C’

men get arsey in my first example but less so in my second (excluding the lesbian bit as obviously some men would go straight into homophobia)

And?

Well said, and same

You'll never find Suggestions et al on the Peggie threads, or the FWS court judgement threads, or the tribunal tweet threads, etc etc. Too inconveniently full of the evidence of what women have been warning about for years coming to pass.

On anything where they can say something along the lines of 'you voted for Trump!!!' (erm, I live in Scotland, pal) or arm flail wildly about 'right wing funding' (Lorna Slater tried that and made herself look a right numpty), you'll find them there, in spades.

Talking points will inevitably include -

KJK, as if we have to agree with every person, about every single point they make, ever.

JKR, in some eye rollingly way.

If they're really desperate, a reference to Tufton Street and if they're feeling really nostalgic, a Comerfield-esque swipe at Berns.

Or that bloody survey....oh lord, not the survey.

There are some very patient people on this thread. And some people who are either persistently disingenuous, or persistently slightly dim. It’s not always easy to tell.

The victim positioning bewailing ‘the defacement of our flag’ and the ‘real hurt’ it causes … as opposed to the die in fire threats and the assaults and the harassment and process as punishment policing…

Makes me want to vomit when I see some usernames.

@Waitwhat23 and @myplace I agree with you both, what I find alternately amusing/enraging is that if any one of these apologists/idealogues bothered to read anything about the history of women, they would know that we, as a sex class, don’t give in to injustice or misogyny, we never have. Unlike men, we don’t kill the people/men, who oppress us, we defy them, we educate them, we show them our strengths. Many women have been lost along the way, but we won’t stop fighting for our right to exist as women, for our right to safety and at the moment for our absolute right to say that men cannot be women.

They’ve tried calling us bigots, they’ve tried telling us to be kind, they’ve tried threatening to rape and kill us, and now they’re telling us we’re all Trump supporting, right wingers, and none of it will work, because even as delusional as some of them are, biological facts win every time.