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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 15:51

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

OP posts:
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27
Binglebong · 10/02/2025 21:16

Sounds like an incredibly busy day. Can anyone point me ti a summery?

EasternStandard · 10/02/2025 21:16

@prh47bridge it's hard to know how it will go

When does the employer attend? Is that Searle or someone else?

Boiledbeetle · 10/02/2025 21:16

rebmacesrevda · 10/02/2025 21:11

It's incredible that he got the hospital management on board with his delusion. Is he really that adept at manipulation? Or are they just utterly spineless? I'm amazed/ horrified!

But of both. He's a manipulative arse, and it seems, not yet been on the stand so we'll have to wait and see, the management just rolled over and threw Sandie under the bus.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 10/02/2025 21:17

rebmacesrevda · 10/02/2025 21:11

It's incredible that he got the hospital management on board with his delusion. Is he really that adept at manipulation? Or are they just utterly spineless? I'm amazed/ horrified!

Long experience of this nonsense suggests that 1. The NHS is one of the most captured bodies there are 2. Generally organisations are terrified of their TW staff in particular kicking off aggressively and raining all kinds of hassle down upon them

far easier to placate the men and appeal to women’s socialisation to put others first with a side order of threats of a disciplinary for being transphobic

Boiledbeetle · 10/02/2025 21:18

Binglebong · 10/02/2025 21:16

Sounds like an incredibly busy day. Can anyone point me ti a summery?

Summary DU claims to be a biological woman he's definitely definitely definitely not a man

on repeat all day.

Ferro · 10/02/2025 21:19

NotAGentleReminder · 10/02/2025 21:11

Are the Telegraph comments only visible on the Telegraph site? I can't get them to open on the archive version that's linked to on the TT substack.

Not entirely sure how it works but I think the archive only takes a snapshot of the page as it was when it was archived. The comments might be injected in to the live page by a script or something.

GreySkirt · 10/02/2025 21:20

I wonder how Kate Searle is going to sleep tonight. I know they’re not supposed to know what previous witnesses have said, but it must be the talk of the hospital.

I think it’s going to be more revealing what someone without an apparent narcissistic personality disorder says about it all.

Looks like his wife was a couple of years below him at Madras? So it’s possible she’s never had any other relationships, or know it’s wrong to publicly speculate but if she was my daughter I’d be so so worried about her.

Priddy · 10/02/2025 21:20

fanOfBen · 10/02/2025 16:44

As far as I'm aware, we're the only place where a group of people are discussing what's happening together and following in detail and in real time. No equivalent where people on the other side are doing the same, I mean. There's nothing similar in the obvious place on reddit, anyway. Interesting to speculate about why that is.

Edited

It's being discussed on Twitter.

RethinkingLife · 10/02/2025 21:22

rebmacesrevda · 10/02/2025 21:11

It's incredible that he got the hospital management on board with his delusion. Is he really that adept at manipulation? Or are they just utterly spineless? I'm amazed/ horrified!

This might clear up a few matters in its interesting discussion of grandiose vs vulnerable narcissism (ignore the sex distinction).

Researchers have discovered that narcissism can come in two types: grandiose and vulnerable. And Green has shown that while men are more likely to have grandiose narcissism, boasting high self-esteem and extroversion, women more commonly display the vulnerable form, involving introversion, defensiveness and low self-esteem. They may be more brittle and less boastful.
Green believes this is because bragging and chest-thumping simply aren’t socially acceptable for women. “Narcissistic women are abusing in ways that society allows,” she argues. “They often leverage their femininity, present themselves as soft-spoken, but it is cunning; it’s premeditated.” They may still lie, cheat and control others.
In Somma’s study, women with high levels of psychopathy, machiavellianism and grandiose narcissism scored low on agreeableness (how friendly you are) and high on social deviance (breaking rules or norms). Women with vulnerable narcissism, however, were less socially deviant and more agreeable than women with other dark traits. They also had more paranoid thoughts and the worst mental health of all. This is potentially because they are more insecure and eager to fit in. “They’re often better at faking empathy,” says Green.
But we may fail to recognise these traits as narcissistic. “Female leaders with narcissistic traits can cause as much reputational damage, staff turnover, bullying, as male ones – they just go about it in a more sneaky way,” says Green. “Male leaders can be more aggressive and socially dominant to establish authority. But female leaders may blame the higher-ups for why they had to fire you – even if they orchestrated it.”
There’s certainly aggression beneath the surface. Vulnerable narcissism is more strongly linked to aggression in relationships, as well as physical and verbal bullying, than the grandiose type.

2 types of narcissism: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21204843/

introversion, low self-esteem:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10157482/

aggression in relationships: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886920304360?via=ihub

verbal bullying: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-024-01477-y

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2025/feb/02/female-narcissism-is-often-misdiagnosed-how-science-is-finding-women-can-have-a-dark-streak-too

‘Female narcissism is often misdiagnosed’: how science is finding women can have a dark streak too

Research into the ‘dark personality traits’ has always focused on men. But some experts believe standard testing misses the ways an antisocial personality manifests itself in women

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2025/feb/02/female-narcissism-is-often-misdiagnosed-how-science-is-finding-women-can-have-a-dark-streak-too

OvaHere · 10/02/2025 21:22

Boiledbeetle · 10/02/2025 21:18

Summary DU claims to be a biological woman he's definitely definitely definitely not a man

on repeat all day.

But also he refutes there's even such thing as a biological woman...or a man or even male and female.

So what he thinks makes him a woman and female isn't clear to anyone.

MouldyCandy · 10/02/2025 21:23

ConstructionTime · 10/02/2025 21:16

"Seen" alleges that BBC changed the headline - with screenshots:
nitter.poast.org/JournalismSEEN

I noticed that! They moved it to the front page from the Scotland pages too (unless "most read" does that automatically for them).

eatfigs · 10/02/2025 21:24

When Fife's witnesses are questioned by NC I hope she grills them on the nonsense DU spouted today. Especially the medical staff, surely they don't believe he's female?

NonCrimeHakeIncident · 10/02/2025 21:26

Did they say there were 3 trans people working in the hospital overall, or just in the A&E department?

Boiledbeetle · 10/02/2025 21:26

eatfigs · 10/02/2025 21:24

When Fife's witnesses are questioned by NC I hope she grills them on the nonsense DU spouted today. Especially the medical staff, surely they don't believe he's female?

If any of the later witnesses on his side say he's a man DU will go permanently on the sick claiming its a hostile work environment.

fanOfBen · 10/02/2025 21:26

OvaHere · 10/02/2025 21:22

But also he refutes there's even such thing as a biological woman...or a man or even male and female.

So what he thinks makes him a woman and female isn't clear to anyone.

(pedantry mode on) He doesn't refute it: that's the whole point, you can't refute a thing that is true. He denies it - which is quite different. (pedantry mode off)

anyolddinosaur · 10/02/2025 21:27
  • *@rebmacesrevda Welcome to the sunlight. You'll find a lot of us started out that way. I have a trans relative, thought I should find out more about the problems they might face - peaked rather rapidly. It took a bit longer to realise quite how misogynistic the Labour Party is and how much they deny reality over this.

I still havent been able to bring myself to vote conservative but I cant vote for anyone who supports transing children or self ID. The Labour party have restricted backtracking on both. A friend tried to persuade me otherwise - told them it was like being asked to vote for a known paedophile as the Labour Party were harming children.

I'd vote for Wes Streeting, I'd vote for Rosie Duffield - couldnt vote for most Labour candidates. Cant trust anyone who claims TWAW.

I'll never forgive the NHS for their role in enabling this.

GoldThumb · 10/02/2025 21:29

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 10/02/2025 20:41

But has DU achieved Gender Reassignment?
By his own words, he
a) is a biological woman; and
b) does not have a GRC. (Can someone confirm he said this?? I understand it to be the case but am now doubting how I know this. It's all doing my head in!).

He hasn’t disclosed whether he has one or not (so obviously not).

NC was questioning what he deems important/relevant when distinguishing men and transwomen, and she said something like ‘you have not disclosed whether you have a GRC, therefore you mustn’t believe it’s a relevant way ti distinguish’ or something like that.

RoamingGnome · 10/02/2025 21:30

Have we been told what Dr Searle's email said yet?

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 10/02/2025 21:30

NonCrimeHakeIncident · 10/02/2025 21:26

Did they say there were 3 trans people working in the hospital overall, or just in the A&E department?

That sounded like a desperate slip from JR when objecting to something NC was asking about. Revealing that DU isn't the only bloke using female facilities (or are they? It would be interesting to know what arrangements are in place for the other 2) I'm not sure helps their case. It just opens up a line of Qs on what process has been followed for each time a man rocks up to declare himself a woman, and whether they're immediately given unrestricted access to female facilities.

It would be interesting also, to find out what criteria was relied upon to give Upton permission to use the female CR, if indeed it's on a case by case basis. What was the criteria they looked at to determine DU should have access? Was there any? Or did they just accept his claim to be entitled & crossed their fingers no one would object?

So many questions.

CriticalCondition · 10/02/2025 21:30

OhBuggerandArse · 10/02/2025 21:14

I think it is very hard for many men, judges included, to have the instinctive understanding that many women do, of the kind of gaslighting, controlling behaviour we saw from Dr Upton today. Women (especially older women), unfortunately, are more likely to have experienced it in their own lives and once they've figured out how it works they are much more able to spot the pattern if it happens in another context.

I agree with this. I'm not sure the judge really 'got' what DU was doing when he was trying to control NC's language. He drew an analogy with one person speaking in French and another answering in German. Even after NC spelled it out I got the sense he was just frustrated and wanted to move things on.

nauticant · 10/02/2025 21:31

For those wanting a summary, unfortunately it was too big and too complex to be able to do it justice in anything other than an essay. However, this BBC report at just over 2 minutes pulls out some of the main strands and is informative and reasonably balanced:

x.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1889025094304862250

OP posts:
HootyMcBoobs · 10/02/2025 21:31

So Dr Upton is not, and other transwomen are not, male.
He and other transwomen are actually biologically female.
Yet sex is nebulous and tricky, and by his definition NOT definable or quantifiable.
And yet he is adamant that he is a biological female.
That he can't define.

How does that work?

The SECOND this guy uttered the words that he was a "biological female" his case should have been thrown out.
Are we just permitting utter blatant lies or downright delusion in court now?

Lark1ane · 10/02/2025 21:31

She's have to highlight something in Upton's evidence that discredits him to NHS Fife's advantage & vice versa. Given the bill is being picked up by NHS Fife, it does weigh heavily more in their favour to instruct JR to make their case stronger & throw Upton under the bus - if there's a legal argument to make to defend their actions at any point.

@GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder

The unravelling was starting today with the unusual frequency of JR's objections and attempts to divert. I don't think she was too happy with some of the things he was saying. Many, including some press, are questioning his competency as a doctor with such beliefs. Which doesn't paint the Employer in a good light.

Upton originally said last week that he had been using the CR for a while and then told his manager of this. Today, he claimed that he had been told to use the Women's CR by his management. It can't be both.

It will be interesting to see what Searle says she was told by Upton to precipitate that email to staff. She may well throw him under the bus to save herself and her employers.

prh47bridge · 10/02/2025 21:32

EasternStandard · 10/02/2025 21:16

@prh47bridge it's hard to know how it will go

When does the employer attend? Is that Searle or someone else?

I haven't looked at the witness list, but it is likely that everyone giving evidence apart from DU will be either from NHS Fife or giving evidence on their behalf. If I have understood correctly, we are taking a break from DU tomorrow to get the first such witness.

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