NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9

Throughout this cross-examination, he's demonstrated quite clearly that he isn't intimidated at being challenged by a woman at all.

NC drew out that DU was motivated by his beliefs not his own safety and well being.

NC allowed DU to give a true portrayal of himself, not the shrinking wet lettuce he described earlier to JR and in his complaint. But a self confident arrogant person whose beliefs were firm and unfaltering.

He admitted that he knew SP felt very uncomfortable.

Which means he did by his own admission know he harassed her.

The Court could also conclude that the Christmas incident was harassment by SP, (quite possibly an harassment by DU at the same time.)

But that conclusion would not cancel out the first to incidents of harassment by DU.

It is just all smoke and mirrors on DU part.

He thought the usual TRA tactic was clever, but he actually exposed who he really is and what he is about.

And contained within his smug presentation of his beliefs was an admission of his actual harassment.

what if he’d sat there and said he was a wombat or a table or a small village in Shropshire?? They’re all equally as untrue and yet somehow in the upside down, everyone is meant to nod and say “no obvious man of course you’re a biological woman”

Small village in shropshire it's only a matter of time...

Thing is he can't realistically sit there and admit that being trans by definition means he is male, or he gives SP a valid reason to have a problem with him being in her CR. To save face (aside from coming across as utterly deranged of course) he has to go the whole hog with the most extreme and ridiculous TRA take that he IS female and that's why he's sooooooo upset and offended, and of course it can only be that she "harassed" him because he's trans, not had an understandable issue with him being there because he's male.

Anyone else hoping NC was going to whip out a photo of Alex Drummond, expander of womanly bandwidth? Maybe tomorrow.
I would like to know what they make of Philip Bunce too, who would presumably yoyo between changing rooms.

I think she was referencing him with the comment about a bearded male and expanding the bandwidth stuff but I think a break was then called so she didn't continue with it

I hope that she finds her way to the Transwidows. If she has family then they must be so concerned for her in this relationship.

I did see that. She walked over from her seat to where NC was at the desk. I wouldn't say agitated but she was waving her hands and a water bottle around while talking to NC. Animated rather than agitated? I thought it a very odd thing to do and wondered what on earth she was hoping to achieve.

And I want to know about the discrepancy in was he getting changed or not? It's a massive difference in accounts. I'm inclined to think he was because, well, I don't trust anythinhe says as he spouts nonsense, but more objectivly if he was clearly on his way out Sandie would have just thought "thank god" and willed him to hurry up.
I don't believe, knowing what we know about her need to get changed, that she'd have chosen then to start the conversation if he was otherwise leaving. Whatever he says about the order of his toileting habits.

"Kiss Pwudence, Keith"

I think they are the sort of individuals should get some air time to help the judge see what exactly is being discussed in this "no need to do anything except sincely feel it" world of appropriated womanhood.
I thought I heard JR say something like "that's not plausible" at the mention of a bearded male "woman" so maybe she could do with knowing as well.

Christ, just managed to catch up with today and all I can say is

I think upton's wife was just checking something with NC it looked like maybe she was asking if she had to leave in the break or could she stay

Juxtapose that against the poor wee lamb on Christmas eve, scared, crying and searching out a supervisor and being escorted to his car because a woman didn't think he should be in the women's changing room.

I'm not sure I believe that he genuinely believes it's true. Suspect he knows full well he's a man

Either way it renders him unfit to practise, and bringing the profession into disrepute.

I'd say it's time to start a wider enquiry into why the NHS is permitting this. Is the service fit for purpose?

There's no reason to play around here - if he wants us to take him seriously, then let's take him seriously. You want to say ridiculous things about biology, sure, but it won't be as a medical professional.

There's no reason we have to employ doublethink on his behalf and believe that he simultaneously doesn't know what sex he is but understands it well enough to be medically qualified.

But whilst we have Gender Reassignment as a Protected Characteristic, he is an Untouchable. The NHS can't do a thing about him, can they?

Just caught up! Wow - thanks to all who have kept the threads updated. My blood pressure is way up just from reading- it probably would have shot out through my head if I’d watched the tribunal.
What a thoroughly, unpleasant, self-centred, misogynistic, selfish, arrogant, smug, sneery, patronising, deluded individual. I cannot believe he’s a medic. He doesn’t deserve that privilege. Vile performance.
NC was magnificent, going by all your reports!
Why was JR allowed to object/interject so frequently?
The poor little flower like DrU seemed to be managing, having shed his frail, delicate and tearful little self along with his trousers.

Oh God, if he was kicked out of NHS, there would probably be ANOTHER tribunal for unfair dismissal. For his gender beliefs.

From that last thread, with people saying things like "trans women with boobs are at risk of assault in men's spaces" I just want to shout at them all, "Stop fucking about with your bodies, then!"

No, I’m worried too. The poor woman. I hope he doesn’t dominate and control her like he tried with NC but our experience on these boards tells us otherwise.

'Gender' beliefs have not yet been Grainger tested. 'GC' beliefs have , and were found to be Worthy of respect in a democratic society.

I think this man either has a personality disorder - he knows he’s talking nonsense but is revelling in the attention and power of making everyone appear to take this guff seriously or he is mentally unwell and genuinely believes what he’s saying. Either way, a question over his fitness to practise

What does Dr Upton think 100% of the patients in a maternity ward will have in common?
What does he think 100% of patients on a prostate cancer ward will have in common?

If sex is "nebulous" and "tricky" as he says, then why are the statistics completely immutable, unchanging, provable and demonstratable 100% of the time, every time?

Why has there never been a biological male who has ovulated, conceived and given birth?
Why has there never been a biological female who was able to give a sperm sample?
And why have these things remained unchanged throughout the hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution?

And did Dr Upton get their medical degree out of a Christmas cracker?

That also just fundamentally misunderstands the motivation of most sexual offenders - it’s about control, dominance, fear etc… not really about boobs.

Thanks to everyone for the commentary! Here's some relevant bits from 1984, which funnily enough I was thinking about after reading Friday's threads and especially Dr U's contributions. Sometimes men are men, sometimes men are women, sometimes they are both at once. It is not easy to become sane.

'How many fingers, Winston?' 'Four! Stop it, stop it! How can you go on? Four! Four!' 'How many fingers, Winston?' 'Five! Five! Five!' 'No, Winston, that is no use. You are lying. You still think there are four. How many fingers, please?' 'Four! five! Four! Anything you like. Only stop it, stop the pain!' (.....) 'You are a slow learner, Winston,' said O'Brien gently. 'How can I help it?' he blubbered. 'How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.' 'Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.' (.....) O'Brien smiled slightly. 'You are a flaw in the pattern, Winston. .... It is intolerable to us that an erroneous thought should exist anywhere in the world, however secret and powerless it may be.

1984, George Orwell. gutenberg.net.au/ebooks01/0100021.txt

(Don't know where the bigly letters appeared from!)