Mumsnet listed as Anti-Trans

[Hoosemover]

there a list of organisations and Mumsnet is on it. Along with the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

x.com/twisterfilm/status/1888255119449268674?s=61

So, you cannot say what the basis of these identities are. You think there might some mental health aspect. But you don't think it is a person's personal belief about themselves (ie. what a philosophical belief about their identity refers to).

I don't think that you do understand my point of view. You have actually mischaracterised my point of view more than once over our interactions on threads.

If there is no recognised biological basis for gender identities, as there is for sex, what else can it be if it is not based on someone's personal belief about their own identity? Which, by the way, can very much be a source of their distress.

We present as a heterosexual couple. I’m attracted to his masculinity. Yes he has a vagina.

Honestly you need a different word - heterogenderal? You 'present' as different genders, but you're the same sex - prefix homo-. It's the former that matters to you, but that doesn't give you license to redefine what words mean. The insistence by (mostly male) transactivists that a male can be a 'lesbian' has caused the most gross infringements of the rights of actual lesbians. Stonewall etc trying to change the meaning of homosexual to mean homogenderal is frankly appalling.

I don't think that you do understand my point of view. You have actually mischaracterised my point of view more than once over our interactions on threads.

Yes as pointed out (and not just on this thread) the position is inconsistent.

Surely its nuance is within a homosexual relationship?

I mean, there are a LOT of ways to be heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual - and a myriad of presentations and preferences. That's part of the fun. Your same sex relationship with your transman partner who passes as masc is one presentation, two femme lesbians would be another, bisexual women in a same sex relationship is a third (and doesn't make the last example lesbians).
All are valid. Some are perceived differently by outsiders.

My sexuality is one thing, my perceived sexuality is another. I'm bisexual and I'm married to a man. To the world we're a heterosexual couple. In truth I am a bisexual woman in a heterosexual relationship. It matters to no one; my sexual orientation is moot as I am only attracted to my partner as a sexual partner. But I know that my relationship is heterosexual even though my sexuality is not.

Isn't that the case for you? Homosexual relationship, not necessarily lesbians. No need to co-opt the battles lesbians fought for acceptance to acknowledge what you are.

You, personally, believe it is more nuanced, yet you describe someone who prioritises sex over gender identity for this situations as 'anti-trans' because of your personal belief. When there are transgender people who describe their sexual orientation based on sex.

So, who are you to tell others they are 'anti-trans'? Do you see why posters reject your moralistic accusation? And please don't deny that calling someone 'anti-trans' or a whole group of people is a moralised accusation.

As I have and others have pointed out. You have appointed yourself as an arbitrator of who is transgender and who is not, and you are prioritising your own language beliefs over others with that judgement. Your reasons don't seem very cohesive or logical.

And by all means, continue to do so, it is a free society. However, every time you do it, surely you understand that people will push back on this demonising and vilifying accusation.

You are right about it being a same sex relationship.

I would just say in terms of attraction I’m attracted to him as a man. Does that make sense?

I guess that’s why I see us differently. The world sees us differently.

I love the Schitts Creek quote “ I’m into the wine not the label.”

That would be my orientation.

Your are welcome.

I think your contribution helps highlight the differences between the female and male needs /rights in society.

I’ve shared my beliefs. Mine. Just mine. I haven’t appointed myself anything.

I do consider it anti trans the position that trans people don’t really exist.

That people shouldn’t present as the opposite sex or it’s lying and deceitful.

Biology needs to be protected and respected in terms of sports and protected spaces which is where my views land.

I’m not trans. I know it’s treated by the medical world as Gender Dysphoria. I know for my partner medical intervention was life changing. I don’t know how it feels. I won’t pretend to either.

There is still such a difference. 💐

I do consider it anti trans the position that trans people don’t really exist.

They do exist. They are human beings with equal rights to all other human beings, in this country and many others. They have a body and a personality.

They just are not the opposite sex.

Why do people like to insist we're saying trans people don't exist? Is your partner somehow invisible?
She exists. They exist. Noone has ever pretended otherwise.
Us pointing out the factual reality that noone has ever, in the history of the world, changed sex, is not stating anyone doesn't exist. Your trans partner exists...she is a woman.
Any modifications made it different presentations to the world don't make her any less existing. They just make her still very much actually a woman.

How would you define them?

If I’m introducing you to my partner and I mention he’s trans what would that indicate to you?

You also complained that the discussion is polarised then complained that anyone who disagrees with your base assumptions is transphobic.

You say you believe in a gender identity. How did you come to that belief?

And we will just keep pushing back every time you accuse us of being anti-trans.

“I do consider it anti trans the position that trans people don’t really exist.”

People with transgender identities exist. They are real people.

“That people shouldn’t present as the opposite sex or it’s lying and deceitful.”

People can ‘present’ how ever they want. I believe that people have told you that. What people with gender identities cannot do is expect any other person to support their belief that they are either the other sex to what they materially are or no sex at all. And they should never be in a situation where sex matters and they are the opposite sex to what is expected of that situation. If sex doesn’t matter, so be it. But hiding the material sex they are when it is important cannot be said to be anything but deceptive. Whether you want to admit that or not.

Ok but is he a trans man or a woman? Or both?

If he’s a woman then is he still trans? What does trans stand for or mean in this?

She is a trans identifying female. She's a woman. Trans means she presents as and modifies herself to appear male. She may well pass as male (but possibly not as much as you think).

I don't see why any of this is difficult to define. You know all the above already.

“I’ve shared my beliefs. Mine. Just mine. I haven’t appointed myself anything.”

By accusing people of being ‘anti-trans’ based on your own beliefs (as you say, just yours, you have indeed appointed yourself in moral judgment.

i don’t believe that saying people are anti-trans is anything but a moral judgement that you, personally, have made.

Yes. That’s right.

It’s a moral judgement based on my beliefs.

What is the issue?

Because I was curious if you believed that trans men and trans women exist.

It seems you disagree with the labels?

Gah this is painful. This point has been answered repeatedly

yes they exist as people because they human beings who occupy mass in space & time

but they remain the sex they were born no matter what modifications they have done to their body

That is fine. I expect then that we all will just go around and around like this every time and you really cannot then complain about people telling you how offensive your accusations are.

They do exist. They are human beings with equal rights to all other human beings, in this country and many others. They have a body and a personality.

They just are not the opposite sex.

This, this, this and this. For the This haters.

If I’m introducing you to my partner and I mention he’s trans what would that indicate to you?

If a situation is such that someone's sex is utterly irrelevant to how you treat them - which would be the vast majority of situations - then you wouldn't treat a man differently from a woman anyway.

If it was a situation where someone's sex is relevant - mainly medical or practical circumstances, or where sex class is a risk factor for something - then people should be honest about their sex.

I don't think it's that complicated?

yes they exist as people because they human beings who occupy mass in space & time

but they remain the sex they were born no matter what modifications they have done to their body

From me too

I’m not being stubborn I was just wondering if the trans identity was recognized.

Wondering if being a trans man or trans woman would still recognized as a separate group, or if they are removed and it’s simply men and women.