NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #6

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Difficult to compare as I think the figures above are only 1 hospital rather than a whole trust?

Interesting Helen Joyce has posted this on X
https://x.com/hjoycegender/status/1887926769312784711?s=61&t=W8z-NdrPTYy21FuiQuezcw

”This hearing is simply extraordinary. No cross-examination today, but quite dramatic procedural back-and-forth. An uncomfortable weekend ahead for anyone who might know about concealed documents or baseless claims. And WHY is the same barrister representing both respondents?”

After today it is interesting JR is representing both as it seems DU may need a defence that can say the hospital/managers did not give good advice, take the right action etc.

So the good doctor's testimony and how 'unsafe', 'distressed' this man who'd managed to cope with the rigours of a medical degree and is built like a brick shithouse was the headline news on BBC Scotland website and on Reporting Scotland yesterday. Not a mention on either today. OK it was more 'technical' today but to not even merit a brief mention seems odd.

I think the shock from many is less about the sense that additional documents might be missing per se but about what they purport to potentially reveal. If there was an initial investigation that was aborted and that was not disclosed that would be a lot more serious than just a more usual scramble under time pressures. It also, I would imagine, will significantly undermine their case if procedure and processes for investigations that result in suspension, and for such a considerable period, we’re not minuted. It is not credible that an HR process within an organisation like the NHS with quite a large A&E depart wouldn’t know that minuting everything would be crucial and to not do so suggests a desire to either avoid future FOI requests or to hide material information from the possibility of a tribunal. If this is indeed proved to be the case then it suggests an arrogance that is, from all the we have encountered from various tribunals, the heart of the issue. Process is supposed to protect from the subjective but the captured are so convinced of their rightness that they don’t think process applies to them. Equally, many are so scared of being sanctioned by the righteous that they also avoid process.

No doubt the BBC will have a drag queen breaking news story that merits their attention much more than this. 🙄

Yes I agree @Largofesse, the possible content of these documents does make it more serious and shocking in this case. My comment was aimed more at people who seemed surprised that this sort of thing could happen in a case, but I do agree here that you would think these documents are ones that would obviously be relevant because they are central to due process which is central to the case.

Just so I've got the basics clear, there was the first activity involving ED (Esther Davidson, Sandie Peggie's line manager) that's argued over in terms of whether it was an investigation or not and then later there was the investigation that was damning against Peggie, and that was run by MSF (Michelle Sinclair Farrow?), but she won't be giving evidence because she's on sick leave and Anne Hamilton will give evidence instead. Will ED be available to give evidence?

The reality is changing rooms need to have individual privacy. There would be much less of an issue if that had been the case here or in the case of the other post about a school girl sharing a changing room with a transgender female her own age that has all their male parts.

Peggie sounds toxic though. They need to find in favour of the NHS on this one but the NHS and every other employer/school needs to provide proper privacy in place to protect everyone.

£8000

💖

https://alexander-herschell-bell.muchloved.com/

In what way does Peggie sound toxic?? Are you reading the same case the rest of us are reading?

@KnottyAuty “Dr U could potentially be the Rosa Parks of the Trans community's fight for civil rights.”

lolololol

Purely because we can post images again!!

Is a transgender female a trans man, a female who is transgender?

JR - I'm surprised, throughout these proceedings you have misgendered DU, and instructed your legal team to misgender them. You've chosen
misgender him.

Yes, and that's Upton's own barrister misgendering him, whilst castigating Sandie for misgendering him!

"transgender female" is a deliberately ambiguous term because it should mean a transman but plenty of transwomen use it to describe themselves.

Are people donating to Sandie's father's fund in lieu of donating to her legal costs? What have I missed?

So heart warming to see so many giving whatever they can manage to this charity in support of one courageous woman and her family. The messages are wonderful.😍

Individual privacy was not really an issue until men started barging their way in.

Also, what you are proposing (I'm guessing you're talking about individual cubicles), is an expensive and time consuming endeavour if you mean that all NHS trusts need to modify their changing rooms. Where are they going to get the money for that? Surely the simplest and most straightforward option is to keep men out of women's bloody changing rooms.

As for this 🙁
with a transgender female her own age that has all their male parts.

They're not female if they have their male parts though, are they?

@Booboobagins transgender female her own age that has all their male parts

You sound very confused. Maybe try a re-write

Disagree. Mixed sex changing rooms even with cubicles have higher rates of voyeurism than single sex.

also not sure where you’ve got the notion that Sandie is toxic from - have we been listening to the same proceedings?

The Bard, as ever, has just the right words to sum up this entire shit show from Dr U and NHS Fife:

Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive

I spy a troll

#istandwithsandiepeggie

snap

#istandwithsandiepeggie

Peggie sounds toxic though

Why? That is quite the slur to throw out, on what basis are you doing so?