NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #6

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

That was a different judge though.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

The whistleblowing part of the claim could be difficult, especially if that is also against Dr Upton. Unless there is considerably more than has come out so far it would seem the discrimination claims are impossible to defend. The judge may want to duck out of patient safety saying that is a regulatory issue. I hope he won't and I'd expect NC to push hard on when and how suspensions are normally made and the process that was - or more likely wasnt - followed.

Do you think that all the press headlines about ‘admitting’ harassment that the press picked up on, will increase the amount of compensation Sandie will get?

Presumably, JR only said Forshatter once, apologised when corrected, and was careful not to say it again?

Delurking (after a couple of years!) to say thank you to everyone for these case threads, they are so helpful. I have requested access for Monday!

Repeatedly said it. Not once did she pronounce her name correctly! Maya , a better woman than me, did not rise to the bait.

The whistleblowing claim is often partly to pressure the other side. If you suffer a detriment after whistleblowing it’s unlimited damages ie there is no cap on what the ET can award in the compensatory award. So they can take into account current and potentially future loss of earnings.

Unfortunately, inventing more or less spurious allegations of clinical negligence (and we all make some mistakes) against people who have annoyed the people in charge is standard operating procedure in the NHS. And often works.

No. What the press choose to write is not relevant.

People get my (very ordinary) name wrong on a very regular basis (most meetings, even when people know me) and supplant another name with a "sh" sound in it (none in my actual name).

For decades I've thought of tilting my head and asking, "Ill-fitting dentures? Have you considered…?" I never have, but one of these days…

Okay, I am filling up the thread, but can anybody explain what the complaints system is/was (think it ended in "...ix" the Dr U and the Senior Dr (probably the wrong title, but the lady he went crying to at Xmas)? Would you also use it to log the perceived medical negligence incidents or would there be a different proceedure.

I'm not sure we had the dates of those, did we, but they came into play in March '24.

I'm interested too @Madcats

Do you mean Datix? It's exactly used to log incidents, near misses, risks etc.

The NHS Datix policy is a procedure for reporting and managing incidents, risks, and concerns. The policy aims to improve patient safety and protect people from harm.

What is included in the policy?
Who is responsible: All staff are responsible for reporting incidents

What to report: Any incident that could cause injury, loss, or a near miss

When to report: As soon as possible, ideally within 24 hours

How to report: Use the electronic reporting system, Datix

What to include: Only factual information

What happens after reporting: The incident is investigated and analyzed to improve services and identify training needs

Why is the policy important?

It creates an official record of incidents
It helps identify risks and areas for improvement
It ensures that systems for managing risk are effective
It helps build a culture of learning and openness

Reading back TT of Sandie's cross examination is re-infuriating. All of it.

And this bit:
JR - note says 'women have a right to feel safe, its just like that person in the prisons', you say that you were referring to Isla Bryson/Adam Graham
SP - yes
JR - a convicted rapist initially remanded to a woman's prison. You compared DU in the CR with you to a rapist being put in a woman's prison. It's offensive because it feeds a narrative that TW are sexual predators
SP - I was describing how the women felt being in a
prison with a man.
JR - the IX found that this was wrong. This could be seen as insinuation that DU posed risks, such as rape. That's what they thought.
SP - that's what they thought
JR - that's what they thought, that you were comparing DU to a dangerous predator
SP - that was not my intention
JR - but that may have been how it was heard

Having thought about it following this case, if I were in a similar situation and accused of comparing a TW to a rapist/sexual predator, I hope I would feel able to say:
"Well I have no way of knowing whether or not he is a sexual predator, just like with any other man - that's why I'm intimidated if they're in a women's changing room"

Thanks. I thought not but it was just weird how the press twisted and emphasised that bit - it wasn’t representative of the whole day.

So Dr Upton used a system focused on patient safety to formally put on record - as a safety issue for Dr Upton - Dr Upton’s upset at a female nurse wanting privacy from a member of the opposite sex whilst dealing with a female intimate hygiene emergency in the female changing room?

Am I correct in understanding that the Datix report DU made was after and regarding the changing room incident (when SP spoke to DU in the changing room)? So not an incident involving patient safety, harm or risk of harm? It would be very interesting to learn more about what the response to this Datix report was when it was received. Only wondering, obviously don't know what actually happened and need to keep the speculating to a minimum, but could it have been pointed out that a Datix report is supposed to be about incidents, including near misses, involving patient safety...and then some alleged patient safety concerns were raised about SP? Just wondering but it would be interesting to know more.

@LoobiJee it would seem so and that would be an inappropriate use of Datix, as far as I'm aware anyway

I’ve seen some batshit Datix reports, some people just use it as a whinge.

Thanks everyone for the Datix questions and clarifications. Very helpful for those of us who are not NHS.

My earlier point being that there should be 2 Datix reports, more or less contemporaneous with the alleged misconduct incidents.

If they weren't there by 24/12 Dr U should certainly have filed them that night when watching his senior do his harassment claim.

Presumably newbies Drs would learn how to use Datix

Particularly used by nurses against doctors who have irritated them - it could be said. Perhaps contentiously.

@Madcats yes. All staff should know how to use Datix.

@LoobiJee rightly or wrongly it's often used to record staff mis-interactions. Usually by junior staff (ie. nurses) against staff they perceive to be more senior.

Not used enough to record near misses for patient safety partly because of the culture of the NHS but my institution missed a few opportunities to iron out things that went on to cause harm because the people who "saved" the near miss didn't report it and the next person wasn't so lucky/ clever/ savvy. I would like to think that the patient safety team would have seen the issue and responded...