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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #6

1000 replies

nauticant · 07/02/2025 12:34

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

OP posts:
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KnottyAuty · 07/02/2025 18:13

Crying here reading the amazing messages of support on Sandie's dad's donations page. How on earth did the NHS itself so tangled in the "Emperor's New Clothes" of our time

Signalbox · 07/02/2025 18:13

Mollyollydolly · 07/02/2025 16:40

Apropos of nothing, I've a friend who's an intensive care nurse. I was very surprised speaking to her recently that she's convinced Lucy Letby is innocent. The reason she thinks that is because she's seen so many people be scapegoated to cover for department errors over her career. I was shocked how cynical she was about the NHS. She didn't seem to have any faith in management at all.

Did you watch the recent press conference? Shocking if half of what was said is true.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 07/02/2025 18:13

Came across this on X & thought worth adding - again, if earlier threads have this already, apologies.

https://x.com/scottish_women/status/1887924705472008321?s=46

"An FOI request was made to NHS Fife for certain policies, and in response NHS Scotland policies were disclosed. Is this the same for all NHS Boards in Scotland? Do they all follow the same NHS Scotland policies?

Here’s the Gender Transitioning Guide... There’s no dates on this policy, but it’s safe to say that this was the current policy in Dec 2024, ie date of FOI request..."

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/requestforsinglesexstaffcha/response/2845802/attach/4/FOI6677%20NHSScotland%20Wworkforce%20Policies%20Gender%20Transitioning%20guide.pdf?cookiepassthrough=1

Joolsin · 07/02/2025 18:13

Wow, just in from work and have caught up with the day's proceedings. Double-wow, what a doozy. Thanks so much to everyone for documenting (hah!) everything, this is staggering stuff. And how wonderful that Mr Bell's tribute total has now reached £7.8k. It was £420 at midday yesterday when we started donating. 🥹

CocoapuffPuff · 07/02/2025 18:22

Surprise surprise, the bbc coverage is still not updated. The focus is still poor wee scared and traumatised DU, having suffered so much discrimination at the hands of SP.
Want to bet they don't update on Monday either.

Harassedevictee · 07/02/2025 18:25

Doloresparton · 07/02/2025 16:37

Do the NHS have insurance?
I was under the impression that government bodies just took the hits as insurance would be astronomical.
I assume it will affect the trust budget which is very unfair on the patients and why trusts need to get these matters sorted before they go to court.

I only know from a Civil Service perspective but I imagine the NHS is the same.

They do not have employer liability insurance because the government funds the costs. It’s seen as an unnecessary expense.

Waitwhat23 · 07/02/2025 18:28

Catching up from today and two main thoughts -

Naomi Cunningham is proper brilliant.

Thanking everything for the existence of the mighty Tribunal Tweets.

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 07/02/2025 18:30

Harassedevictee · 07/02/2025 18:25

I only know from a Civil Service perspective but I imagine the NHS is the same.

They do not have employer liability insurance because the government funds the costs. It’s seen as an unnecessary expense.

So they're actually paying for this? Out of annual pocket? Absolutely shocking.

Getting loads of your IG and IT staff to work 24/7 over the weekend is going to feel very expensive too.

As someone else asked earlier, given the judge's reiteration that disclosure means everything - scribbled notes, scraps of paper, annoyed manuscripts....why doesn't BU have to disclose all their little notes off their phone?

It sounded like although most of the heat has gone on NHS Fife and their lack of compliance with the judge's requests, it was also mentioned that emails between DU and the BMA and from meeting DU had had with supervisors etc were also missing?

fanOfBen · 07/02/2025 18:32

ShergarAgain · 07/02/2025 18:12

Anyone know if Sandie needs help with legal fees? Is there a fundraiser? I’d love to chip in. Given to her father’s charity.

I believe there isn't a fundraiser. We don't know why - she may have insurance that covers it, or a private donor (the obvious one or someone else...) or maybe even she has been the recipient of left-over funds from one of the other cases. I think at this point there's no doubt we'd support her if she did need to put one up - I wonder, for example, what happens if the case goes to appeal. Fingers crossed, not that that that looks likely at present...

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 07/02/2025 18:33

I am v interested in what this email K Searle sent to 17 consultants in the dept says. NC clearly feels it was ill advised and seemed cross with about it's content but also that they hadn't had sight of it until very recently.

NB a dept that has 17 consultants is not the small sleepy backwater DU paints when they talk of taking notes during work time, expecting waves to be reciprocated or searching the whole dept to speak to specific members of staff about their personal issues...

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 07/02/2025 18:35

fanOfBen · 07/02/2025 18:32

I believe there isn't a fundraiser. We don't know why - she may have insurance that covers it, or a private donor (the obvious one or someone else...) or maybe even she has been the recipient of left-over funds from one of the other cases. I think at this point there's no doubt we'd support her if she did need to put one up - I wonder, for example, what happens if the case goes to appeal. Fingers crossed, not that that that looks likely at present...

I love that someone some months ago said, "it's ok, we've got your back"

Hope for the same for Faye (am less clear on the details there)

ShergarAgain · 07/02/2025 18:35

fanOfBen · 07/02/2025 18:32

I believe there isn't a fundraiser. We don't know why - she may have insurance that covers it, or a private donor (the obvious one or someone else...) or maybe even she has been the recipient of left-over funds from one of the other cases. I think at this point there's no doubt we'd support her if she did need to put one up - I wonder, for example, what happens if the case goes to appeal. Fingers crossed, not that that that looks likely at present...

Thank you. I hope she sees this thread and knows we all have her back. I suspect the obvious & usual brilliant donor is funding her superb defence then.

KnottyAuty · 07/02/2025 18:36

Lunde · 07/02/2025 18:05

What is the situation of Fife and DU being separate respondents but both being represented by JR? Could a conflict of interest arise whereby one of the respondents wants to settle but the other doesn't?

No idea about conflict of interest but I can't see why any party will want to settle.
The stakes have all got too high for everyone...

Dr U has come too far to back down in defense of "my people" and if it goes the wrong way they could personally face "serious" or "financial" consequences (maybe due to libel?). Dr U could potentially be the Rosa Parks of the Trans community's fight for civil rights.

NHS Fife can't back down without throwing Dr U under the bus by admitting procedural failure or that they unlawfully allowed protected rights of a trans woman to override the protected rights of a biological woman. They would face a huge backlash from absolutely everyone for making a mess which doesn't even end up in useful case law.

NHS Scotland/Public Institutions have been wrestling with untested sex/gender law for a long time which is causing a lot of problems/costs so £200k is potentially considered money well spent to get clear precedent about their legal obligations so everyone stops shouting at them.

SP has to clear her name after being accused of bigotry, harrassment and professional misconduct. If her name is not cleared of the professional stuff in particular she faces maybe 2 more years in a tribunal process on that and her career trashed

Sex Matters who are probably providing free legal and expert witness want this to be a test case for women's rights in the battle against misogyny.

All parties have a lot to lose by settling - or am I missing something?

FannyCann · 07/02/2025 18:37

*Doloresparton
Do the NHS have insurance?
I was under the impression that government bodies just took the hits as insurance would be astronomical.
I assume it will affect the trust budget which is very unfair on the patients and why trusts need to get these matters sorted before they go to court.

I only know from a Civil Service perspective but I imagine the NHS is the same.

They do not have employer liability insurance because the government funds the costs. It’s seen as an unnecessary expense.*

NHS has a body called NHS Resolution to deal with liability claims. I believe trusts contribute to it but it's not the same as insurance. Whether it would be involved in paying for these sorts of matters I do not know, I thought it was mainly to deal with patient harm payouts.

resolution.nhs.uk/

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #6
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #6
Mollyollydolly · 07/02/2025 18:37

Why do you think Upton and NHSFife are sharing the same legal team? It's quite unusual isn't it and as this unravels I doubt it will be in either of their best interests. If you have separate legal teams surely it makes it easier to represent your own best interests rather than the collective?

PepeParapluie · 07/02/2025 18:39

Thanks for the updates today everyone, have just been catching up.

On the disclosure point - I know this looks and sounds particularly shocking and egregious, but there are regularly disclosure issues in litigation of all sorts. When you are preparing a case you are receiving hundreds or thousands of documents, and trying to make sense of them and order them in a sensible way. You have a professional duty to advise your client not to destroy documents and that they must disclose everything relevant, but it’s ultimately the client’s responsibility to make sure they’ve sent everything. It can be hard when preparing a case to know where the focus will be when you get to the hearing - you are preparing a whole case, so the laser focus on a small part at the hearing can be difficult to predict.

Here, the failure to disclose does seem on the more serious end of the spectrum because it appears to relate to the very heart of the procedure followed by Fife, which is obviously central to the case.

As others have said, breaches in disclosure mean either running around getting documents last minute (most common in my experience!), or sometimes negative inferences being drawn, and sometimes costs penalties.

In relation to Dr Upton’s notes, I am sure they’ll have had to be disclosed - everyone is referring to them and he has referenced them in his evidence so they’re probably annexed to his witness statement.

KnottyAuty · 07/02/2025 18:43

fanOfBen · 07/02/2025 18:32

I believe there isn't a fundraiser. We don't know why - she may have insurance that covers it, or a private donor (the obvious one or someone else...) or maybe even she has been the recipient of left-over funds from one of the other cases. I think at this point there's no doubt we'd support her if she did need to put one up - I wonder, for example, what happens if the case goes to appeal. Fingers crossed, not that that that looks likely at present...

Scottish nurse in scottish trial - rich donor - I wonder if she's put her pen down on the latest Strike novel to do a quick BACS?

KnottyAuty · 07/02/2025 18:45

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 07/02/2025 18:33

I am v interested in what this email K Searle sent to 17 consultants in the dept says. NC clearly feels it was ill advised and seemed cross with about it's content but also that they hadn't had sight of it until very recently.

NB a dept that has 17 consultants is not the small sleepy backwater DU paints when they talk of taking notes during work time, expecting waves to be reciprocated or searching the whole dept to speak to specific members of staff about their personal issues...

180 patients a day - not so sleepy

https://www.dunfermlinepress.com/news/24845874.e-victoria-hospital-considerable-pressure/

'Very few' patients left waiting in ambulances outside hospital, say NHS Fife

"During peak demand some patients may wait within ambulances with trained paramedic staff before being transferred to the care of our…

https://www.dunfermlinepress.com/news/24845874.e-victoria-hospital-considerable-pressure

Mollyollydolly · 07/02/2025 18:45

I was only musing last night watching that charity fundraiser go up if a certain person will pay for the family to go away on a good holiday when this is finished. Hope she does.

Harassedevictee · 07/02/2025 18:47

@KnottyAuty I agree both sides will want a judgement, which might then be appealed.

It will be easier for SP to settle, what she needs is a clear public statement exonerating her of all charges, no professional misconduct, an apology and a commitment that single sex spaces like changing rooms mean single sex I.e. no TW.

This wouldn’t help Sex Matters because there would be no ET judgement on single sex spaces. However, I cannot believe Maya would be anything but supportive.

Carriemac · 07/02/2025 18:47

That's not that busy ? Our trust sees 500-750 a day . Although I hope someone behaving like Dr Beth Balls would get short shrift here

FannyCann · 07/02/2025 18:52

@Signalbox @Mollyollydolly

I don't want to derail the thread but I have listened to the presentation re Lucy Letby.
Even at the trial lots came out about shocking poor practice and general failures of the department and the hospital. I did however think she was guilty.
Now I'm not so sure. The medical care at the time has been exposed as very poor if not downright negligent. There's at least one baby where I had my doubts at the time and to hear Dr Shoo Lee's very clear explanation of what was really going on with that baby confirms my doubts.

But I can't believe anyone actively looked for a scapegoat.
If anyone is interested I recommend a listen.

https://www.youtube.com/live/N0nmoGes3IU?si=X54af2rpCBpzb4M3

nauticant · 07/02/2025 18:54

CocoapuffPuff · 07/02/2025 18:22

Surprise surprise, the bbc coverage is still not updated. The focus is still poor wee scared and traumatised DU, having suffered so much discrimination at the hands of SP.
Want to bet they don't update on Monday either.

The pattern, repeated several times now, is muted coverage on day 1, sometimes with a genderist slant, and then nothing until the decision is handed down by a court or the ET several months down the line. It takes something extraordinary to happen to get the BBC to do any intervening coverage.

OP posts:
NotMaroonButRaspberry · 07/02/2025 18:56

Harassedevictee · 07/02/2025 18:47

@KnottyAuty I agree both sides will want a judgement, which might then be appealed.

It will be easier for SP to settle, what she needs is a clear public statement exonerating her of all charges, no professional misconduct, an apology and a commitment that single sex spaces like changing rooms mean single sex I.e. no TW.

This wouldn’t help Sex Matters because there would be no ET judgement on single sex spaces. However, I cannot believe Maya would be anything but supportive.

I really do hope, though probably naively, that if they had to settle and apologise to SP that even without legal decision making, other public bodies would have to have a quick rethink of their own policy on sss and consider whether they want to go through a similar rigmarole?

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