NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #5

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

It’s odd how often this happens isn’t it? Thinking of Jane Fae and the endless knitting.

Im sure there’s absolutely nothing that might suggestive a causative link for this way of behaving

NC will deal with that don't you worry,

SP gave her plain and simple account that JR failed to discredit. In fact JR had to resort to accusatory trans activist language to try and provoke SP which did not work.

SP was unshakeable.

DU gave his own self contradictory account, implicated himself.

NC will shred his oral accounts and drill in to his clear inconsistencies.

NotMaroonButRaspberry one hell of a post, and you do one hell of a job, thank you.

Very confused use of pronouns in this news report...
https://twitter.com/LindyLoo2020/status/1887567973285842990?s=19

More musings how or not to show that is the question….

I was at an employment tribunal many moons ago. The claimant oral evidence was butt clench bad, caught out in lie after lie, left the witness chair and her fellow witnesses gave her a thumbs up.

Said witnesses were as bad and it was embarrassing, yet I overheard them in the loo going on about how well they had all done.

No self awareness so maybe he will show up.

the claimant lost BTW case was reported in the press.

It's a low bar. You don't have to have had surgery, or take drugs. Equality Act 2010 s.7

Gender reassignment
(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

The 'proposing to undergo' part of that sentence does my head in.

Mrs Peggie's daughter has posted her thanks on X.

I am absolutely baffled by this whole thing. How on earth did we get to a stage where a man can invade a women's workplace changing room, then create this almighty drama ongoing for over a year when a woman is rightfully challenging his presence within the changing room. It really is a man's world.

He went to Madras College, a Fife state secondary. I recall that the gender nonsense started to become raise its head around the time that he was a senior pupil.

I've never worked at Madras, but was a teacher of many years standing in another school when I was berated by some seniors for "deadnaming" a girl. I'd used the name on the register for a class that I was merely covering. (I later found out that her parents didn't support the social transition and the school was going by the parents' wishes.)

I apologised to the girl. She told me she wasn't bothered... So far as I could see, her pals were very excited about the idea of having a trans friend. Once she left school, she reverted to being a girl.

Since Upton only transitioned fairly recently, it's quite possible that he has a cohort of "allies" from his uni days.

https://alexander-herschell-bell.muchloved.com/?.

Just tipped over into £3000

@LondonLawyer even if that's the case shouldn't women have single sex changing rooms?

I only caught a very small part of the Dr's evidence and thought he seemed quite a sympathetic character at first. I always try to understand the opposing point of view, and if someone really thinks that they are a woman then of course they will want to use the women's CR and it must be very hurtful not to be wanted where you feel you belong.

And, yes, what we see as reality is inconvenient here, but if you think "woman" is a state of mind rather than biology then it's us lot who are denying reality.

Lost all sympathy and gave up the mental gymnastics trying to bekind and understanding when he said something like he could see she was uncomfortable with him and he wrote it down in case it happened again.

How dare he police her feelings like that. It blew my fucking mind. And if someone seemed uncomfortable with me, I would first of all scrutinize my own behaviour and demeanour. I'm not sure if this is female socialisation or just not being an arrogant twat.

I really like the calm honesty of just being who she is that you see in those snippets of SP there. No face hiding, no hustling from her supporters, just a very straightforward woman.

@WorthyTraybake kindly to you, your post sounded a bit well schizophrenic then I realised i just witnessed a live peaking…..

That Alexander Bell link is something else. What a fantastic boost that must give the family. Well done Wims! You are amazing .

Having the protected characteristic of gender reassignment does not in itself mean that the person has the protected characteristic of the sex into which the person "identifies". They are different characteristics, and different questions. If the person has a GRC, it makes the matter more complicated, and the Supreme Court is currently considering the implications of that.

It's such a special way of offering the family support. I love it!

So he wasn't "living as a woman" in 2021.

@WorthyTraybake And, yes, what we see as reality is inconvenient here, but if you think "woman" is a state of mind rather than biology then it's us lot who are denying reality.

Now I don't believe in "woman = state of mind", or "lady-brain", or whatever you want to call it. Women are not a hive-mind, and we don't share mental characteristics that define us as separate from men. That said, I would have thought that most (nearly all?) women do not want to be in changing rooms with people with male bodies; we don't want to see their naked bodies and we certainly don't want them to see ours. If the good doctor cannot understand this, then he really doesn't have a womanly state of mind!

Wait what? Now I am defo struggling to keep up.
Could be two wives one of each biological sex?
Or two wives who are biologically male?
Or a biological female wife plus a trans woman who identifies with being a husband?
And now that civil partnership exists why would anyone sign up to a marriage contract anyway?

"Gender reassignment*
(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.*"

Sorry, slight tangent, but it's really unclear as to why 'reassigning' your GENDER means you propose to 'reassign' your SEX. Are they, or are they not, the same thing? Can we not hash this out once and for all?

If he turns up tomorrow.
Will he say "As a woman AND a lesbian"?
Hmm

Is this like Planning law where you have to have made some meaningful start within 4 years of applying?

I caught a bit of a football match today. Some players collided and one went down liked he'd been shot, writhing on the ground and miraculously healed once he'd got the free kick. Didn't half remind me of this. Although he didn't manage to get his opponent booked.