NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #4

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Yep.

Did anybody here apply to observe in person? (Obviously any mnetter who is actually there right now is not online!) My guess is that's just where the observer chairs are, though I think there's at least one, perhaps a row like the one we see, at the other end of the room, under the camera, as I think there was a head going that way earlier.

He was looking for something/someone to complain about if he deemed there was even a sniff of what he's thought was a slight against him.

F's sake!

I feel threatened if a man is walking behind me on a dark street. I'm not being nice by feeling threatened?

He is literally stating that someone feeling uncomfortable sharing a changing room with him made him sad.

The lack of self awareness and the lack of insight into how this may make him appear to anyone outside his world view is staggering.

Especially from someone who is otherwise appearing to be intelligent, articulate etc

But they did have this hanging 0ver them, and drawing ever closer, at his last Christmas.

I think the bank of supporters is indicative of the class/sex lines of this case. Working class women just always expect to have to get on with things because they don't have the luxury of support.

DU: "Not nice to think someone else feels threatened by you without you doing anything threatening. Doesn't need to go higher- thats just how she's dealing with it "( yes, that's how she's dealing with the fact you are male in the women's changing room)

I'd describe that as bullying, ironically.

I think Dr U genuinely does believe that women see and accept him as a woman. Why would he think otherwise? He's in a culture that says trans women are women, and due to female socialisation women are not exactly going to rock the boat and say they don't agree. One of my colleagues came out as a trans woman a few years ago, and privately all of the women thought it was bonkers (except for one who sent a public email offering to take him shopping and going for makeovers). It's actually quite a horrible situation - he goes about thinking he he is totally accepted as a woman, when it's just a polite facade. And the reason there's this facade is because if you do put your head above the parapet you end up being hauled in front of a tribunal.

Met with consultant as a general check-in in an office about job/progress and if any help needed. Raised issue with SP in CR and that "it wasn't very nice". "i said hi she said hi and then left and was waiting in the corridor". Dr U was asked if they wanted to raise it further and they thought not formally at that time [probably after 1st incident but they can't remember]. "But I wanted her to note in case it escalated to comments or actions in the future that were more serious"

I would be willing to bet real money on autism and struggling to understand being an adult.

Meanwhile Medicine is awash with undiagnosed female doctors (I know because I was one) who just get told to stop being annoying and are you really suitable for medicine?

I'm not even 'out' as autistic at work as the stigma is high.

Dr Upton is now mentioning - going down a formal process as a staff member choose not to undress in front of them.

I'd better report all my Muslim colleagues then. They actively queue for the two cubicles in our changing space rather than changing in the open plan area.

Dr U - I had a supervision and I just casually dropped in that in August SP left the CR. And that.... She did it again in October!!! I was asked if I wanted to take it further, but I said I didn't want to at this point. But I did want it noting incase it escalated to something more serious.

This man is absolutely sinister!😱

Why do you suppose he’d give a toss? Some men (I’m speaking in general as I can’t say whether this one does or not) may even enjoy the fact that they are managing to inflict extra stress and humiliation on women.

I mean you have to consider a world where some men even take notes and feel they have an entitlement to complain about women not staying undressed in their presence, or women who won’t happily go along with being forced to witness men undressing. And make eye contact afterwards so the man can get the final frisson of witnessing the misery they inflicted. Rather reminds me of a Japanese ‘genre’, which I won’t mention.

This would be exhibitionism and voyeurism in that list of fetishes that Maya Forstater’s evidence includes. And in a decent world, indecent men would be hiding it on peril of prosecution for such sexual offences. Not advertising what they’re doing to women.

Terrifying for his patients. What else will he be getting wrong in diagnosis? Very misogynistic point of view that he could well impose on psychiatric patients.

"Based on something you can't change"!!

'It was sad'.

Boo fucking hoo. 🤨

I can well imagine a situation where someone is having a difficult shift, they may have a thumping headache and just lost a patient and he would make a note about how upset he felt at not being smiled at.

You have to request with the tribunal for any special witness measures like supporters. I imagine that Sandie was asked if she wanted any support.

God I can't wait for NC to let rip.

I don't think my emails will get done this afternoon

Actually agog at this. It is literally ‘she didn’t wholly jump onboard and enthusiastically affirm me’ - SP hadn’t done or said anything at this point, she had just waited until the changing room was free of men before going in, and he was complaining about her being not nice to more senior staff.

Witch hunt.

DU: It was sad.

Poor sad man.

And then he says I didn't want to make a big fuss out of it and draw attention to my transness...

Ye gods and little fishes.

I didn't want to make a big fuss.

Draw attention to my trans-ness.

He's got a funny way of showing it.