NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #4

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

At least my university employer didn't go that far. But when I did encounter a clear male in the loos (tiny, two cubicles with shonky chipboard doors with big gaps, no room to pass easily if there was someone at the sink) I left. I imagine my facial expression wasn't 'kind'.

And then went outside and walked around for 5 minutes as I didn't want to go straight back to my office as it had my name on the door and I feared the repercussions.

In the privacy hearing/judgment the judge wrote that there was a 5 year waiting list for gender treatment (the implication being that he was still waiting for treatment). So the no GRC= you aren't able to be treated as if the opposite sex Haldane judgement was out there.

Ah OK, got you.

Apart from anything else, I genuinely don't understand why he thought complaining about someone not wanting to get undressed in front of him was a good look.

I'm female and I've changed many times in open women's changing rooms at work, swimming etc etc. If another woman avoided getting undressed in front of me and waited outside so they could have the changing room to themselves I would respect that and I certainly wouldn't make a formal complaint about them. TBH, I probably wouldn't notice.

It's as if he genuinely thinks he has a right to undress in front of women and for women to undress in front of him. I find his entitlement mind boggling!!!

He went into that job actively looking for evidence that he was being harrassed.

He deliberately chose to behave in ways (eg using female facilities) where he knew he was more likely to have experiences that could potentially be labelled as harrassment.

I'm also starting to think that 'passing' is taking on a new and very insidious meaning. It no longer means that other people can't tell, which was a complete nonsense anyway.

Passing is starting to mean having the power to make people deny your correct sex. To lie about what sex they think you are. If you can make the consequences such that people can't risk openly acknowledging that they know what sex you really are, then you pass.

As for the women who accepted Upton as female and made a big song and dance about it, I wonder how many of them did it because they immediately pegged him as looking for trouble and didn't want to become a target.

Because he tagged SP as a target right from the off. His notes confirm it.

His entitlement is very male. Compare and contrast to a reasonable request for single sex changing by SP which Dr U claims is harassment.

So men can demand women do what they want. And women can't even ask for basic rights for themselves.

It's mens rights activism NHS style.

It's a huge safeguarding failure for patients.

Yes exactly.

Actual real women don't have an issue with women not wanting to change in front of others.

We don't see it as a problem if somebody wants to wait for a cubicle or for the changing room to be empty.

Because we know there's a million reasons for it and it's not a personal slight

Loads of women don't use shared changing rooms or go and get changed in the loo.

How did he even notice without obsessional tab keeping on all the staff?

Well, on the Madras College Easter Newsletter, 2013, they have a Theo Upton from 6A on their Warhammer 40K team. Madras College also have a group photo including Theo Upton, with light red hair and looking very much like a younger version of yer man. Those years would align. Someone 17, or turning 18 in 6A.

Again, like you said, this is all in the public domain. It is immaterial though, isn’t it? We all know he is a man. His thought or claimed identity don’t make him change his sex.. Well if we believe in material reality. Sex is immutable and that has been the only version of this deemed to be WORIADS. Otherwise any old leaflet in my pocket will be identified as an entrance ticket to my next gig.

It's as if he genuinely thinks he has a right to undress in front of women and for women to undress in front of him. I find his entitlement mind boggling!!!

Maybe that's the real working definition of "living as a woman" we've sometimes been struggling to pin down.

Well exactly. DU whole approach really tells on them.

There are individual cubicles at our swimming pool. Loads of women make that decision, nearly all I'd say

That said, I've just seen on the tribute page that he'd died after a long illness, so the family could have been mindful that it might be his last Christmas, so that might have had a bearing on how they reacted.

Well when we see what happens to women who stand up to this nonsense surely the fawning and “validation” from some women is to be expected. They are just trying to protect themselves from harassment and victimisation such as Sandie has endured. They no more think he’s a woman than they’d think I’m the Virgin Mary

Yes, the lack of clarity around 'sex' and the wilful haziness pushed by the likes of stonewall, has led to individuals and organisations believeing that certain 'rights' exist, when they don't.

Oh, I have. When my DW was on the receiving end (not a male behaviour issue, but I'm seeing a lot of similarities in how SP has been treated).

We will need to wait to see what is bundled up in the "harrassment" claim. At the moment it can't just be waiting outside the changing room and not looking friendly. But then again I once had an experience where I was said to be overbearing (not bullying) when I expected a junior member of staff to complete work to a deadline - but nothing was said at all when that staff member thought it was OK to intentionally miss me off an invitation list to a social event. They were totally blind to the effect of their own actions and somehow felt justified - rather like Dr U

1.50

I think he's been briefed by trans rights organisations to do so. Using words like 'escalate' is suggestive of an internal process that has been explained to him.

"Warhammer 40K team"
Nailed on autistic in that case (I can say that as it's my auty son's favourte pastime before anyone flames me)

BeaTwix · Today 11:29
Ok. I’m a googler….things have been spectacularly shit for Sandie Peggie recently.
alexander-herschell-bell.muchloved.com

Posting this again for the new thread.

Rather lovely to see the number of recent donations.

Transactivists have been training women in compliant / submissive behaviour for many years. Civil service transactivists were given women directions about how they must behave on finding a male in the women's toilets back in 2019!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3520371-civil-service-trans-policy-what-can-i-do

All because she chose to stay out of a changing room while the doctor used it.

The Dr noticed and started to target SP then. SP was set up for failure by this person because she did not give 100% validation.

Fair point. But the "so anyway, I was bleeding heavily.... thanks Aunty Joan, yes, I'd like some sprouts... and...." Christmas conversation is still a bit improbable.