NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #4

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

And also if the A&E patient was in a dire state and there is a need to crack on, then is there possibly an advantage to having the Dr do the whole thing?

So, I'm summary

This person started a new job.

Before seeking permission or guidance they started using female facilities including changing rooms and toilets, as they had done this elsewhere.

2-3 weeks in they sought to mention this to their supervisor because they were aware that "some people have issues with trans people re changing rooms " They report that the supervisor said, "full your boots and let me know if anyone is mean" <not verbatim>

They then have an experience where they note that a female member of staff left the changing room and politely waited outside for them to finish before using it themselves as "sad, unusual and a shame"

This happened again, similar but different and they noted this to be a concerning pattern of behaviour that they needed to raise in case it escalated.

I can barely breathe through all this ....

Typical walking on eggshells of coercive control. She really couldn't win either way.

Just a quick point on supporters. SP’s family were witnesses so couldn’t be in the Tribunal when she gave evidence as they hadn’t yet been heard.

Having met a few adolescents who say they are trans or who believe in the ideology, they tend to speak quickly when talking about it. Not sure if this is due to the underlying anxiety that appears to have made them vulnerable to being indoctrinated by it in the first place (mostly online and then by each other from what I've observed) or because they are racing ahead of the cognitive dissonance that plagues them unless they remain in a completely affirming echo chamber and are never challenged. It is doing these young people no favours whatsoever to enable their demands to be affirmed, especially if they are still demanding this on entering the world of work. Would be interesting to know how old DU was when he started claiming to be a woman and what influences he was exposed to. But he is a fully grown adult now and needs to learn to accept that he can't control how other people feel about his behaviour.

Yup. Despite his support entourage

It was very clear as he left the room that the photos circulating are definitely the same person. You'd be very hard pushed not to realise he's a man if you met him

They then have an experience where they note that a female member of staff left the changing room and politely waited outside for them to finish before using it themselves as "sad, unusual and a shame"

So unconsenting women literally are to be forced to get undressed in front of Dr U - they can't just wait outside politely until he's gone? Beggars belief.

I mean he's kind of proving the point so many of us have said all along that it's the unconsenting women that they want to use not the changing room.

And let's not forget it wasn't just SP who did this. Though presumably now the rest of them have seen the treatment of her they're being forced to undress in front of a man so that they don't get suspended.

Thus far he has a big fat nothing, apart from his own perceptions about interactions which are not in any obvious way bullying or harassment.

Definitely a support team in the special chairs brought in specially and placed immediately behind the witness stand. They are so close the man in the grey suit has to angle his legs away from Upton's chair. Upton stood and waited chatting to them while they gathered their coats and only left when they were clustered all around him.

How does he cope in the real world? Oh wait...

Yeah, I'm sure she has lots of friends who'd have happily sat there. I'd have happily sat there if only to correct the otherwise quite stark imbalance of power on display in the court.

Very stark difference in treatment which does not reflect well on the Judge. I'm sure NC has noted for any appeal.

I think a lot of trans people speak quickly as they have anxiety about their voice and they are trying to focus on sounding female (or male).

He's 'Mummy and Daddy's clever girl'.

They've told him that we'll all be fine with it.

I hope someone is going to point out that it's not an issue with 'trans people and changing rooms' but an issue with men, no matter how they identify, using women-only changing rooms.

You forgot that he says he used the ladies CR as was his right as a trans person. Hmm my recollection is self ID was thrown out - does Stonewall law strike again?

Remember the University of Edinburgh trans micro-agression document noted that it was unacceptable for a woman to leave a toilet or changing area if she found a male bodied individual there.

Good point.

And the tribute page for Sandie's dad has gone up over £300 since I last looked!

SP waited outside. Not sure if we can say "politely". She didn't acknowledge Dr U as he came out which is ambiguous but as he thought it was sad/unusual she presumably wasn't friendly. That said not being friendly does not equal someone who is problematic, bullying or a harrasser. Even in multiple incidents. The issue with the observations is also not 100% convincing of anything other than a need for the patient to be dealt with quickly - Dr U admits he didn't know if SP had been tasked with other work elsewhere in the dept. So far I don't understand why this has reached tribunal - but I suppose we will get that in the Xmas eve description

Correct

As he “came out” in 2022 and these incidents occurred in 2023, so plainly there is no GRC. Meaning, even if FWS was decided correctly, it was not relevant

Thanks for the threads and commentary all.

Reminds me of the time I had a complaint about a member of my department when I was a PTC.

A parent asserted that a teacher had given her "an unfriendly look".

OMG if only I had known I could take time off on the sick - I once had an "old boy" at work talk loudly in my hearing [now known as a micro aggression] that I "had no place here and he objected strongly and wanted me gone". Damn it I laughed it off as he was clearly a minority berk that wasn't going to be de-railing my career. I wonder how many men didn't speak up over the years about their objection to me being in their trad male work spaces? Am now paranoid

What time are they resuming? Sorry, I missed what the judge said.

Was that the terrifyingly Orwellian poster that made young women override their own concerns of safety