NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #3

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

How could the ET rule that SP had been discriminated against if they can’t decide that she was entitled to a single-sex changing room in the first place?

yep ^ this

A bus!! A bus!! God you're posh!

We had to walk the 4 and a half miles to Kirkcaldy! I experienced my worst midgie attack ever walking to Kirkcaldy once! That day is still etched in my brain nearly fifty years later!

Yeah it was the judge. I was wondering about the sign questions.

It'll be that they went shopping for Equality Act 2010 expertise. At the level of depth required for these kinds of proceedings, there aren't that many practitioners around. I don't know how many Scottish practitioners there might be.

Auchtertool? Puddledub? (My favourite ever place name, that.)

I assume the sign question was to check whether Sandie woukd have had any privacy changing in the cupboard. So it was a cupboard with supplies and presumably in regular use - how would she have let people know not to enter while she was changing

Thank you so much for sharing this, what a profoundly brilliant piece. It draws together so many things and explains the expectation on women so well. I haven’t see so much of this articulated so brilliantly before.

This bit in particular resonated with me:

‘We’ve all been there. Sod it, we think. I’ll indulge him. I’ll smile at him. I’ll laugh at his jokes. I’ll use his words. I’ll pretend I don’t mind. I mean, how important is it really? What does it cost me really? If it makes him happy, what kind of nonsense is ‘my dignity’ anyways? We are never, ever thanked for this, only punished when we reach the point of saying ‘no’. It costs nothing to smile – well, only a little self-respect – but that smile will be taken as a promise.’

I wonder what the judge is thinking at this point?

I'm quite shocked at the questioning Sandie was put through. Like an old style rape case where the victim used to be put through the wringer. And then they wonder why others don't complain.

Been following these threads with interest. I'm at work so can't watch live so thank you to all the people who have been relaying back the information and to tribunal tweets. I have managed to catch up now.

So often, when women point out these problems, they're shamed into apologising by men who immediately snap back with 'are you saying I'm a rapist?' 'Are you saying I'm a paedophile' etc etc

We've seen it in this, where an attempt was made to shame SP for (allegedly) bringing up the issue of Adam Graham.

We need to start responding to these attempts at shaming by saying that actually, we don't know if you're a rapist/paedo/consumer of violent porn/upskirter/domestic abuser etc etc, and we're not going to apologise for acknowledging that. If men don't like it, that's tough. This is the reality of the world that women live in.

I've lost track of why we're here - with all the bizarre, lengthy questioning, Mr Peggie's facebook posts, being intimidated but not frightened, invoking RMW, relevance of discussing America/religion and misrepresenting statistically insignificant 'research', Maya and Ms Peggie being chastised for not being able to mind read. It's quite bonkers.

This! As a volunteer with a new Rape Crisis Centre in the 70s, I sat through a number of trials where women were questioned with precisely the same "damned no matter what you said / did"
Following Sandie's inquisition I had a visceral reaction to how she was questioned. Utterly vile - and from a KC representing an NHS trust - allegedly a place of facts and science (and abuse of women).

Who was the barrister who represented the Scottish Govt in the FWS Supreme Court Appeal; were they Scottish?

I can see the attraction of going to London Chambers.

It is awful really. They’re happy to shove a woman in a cupboard whilst they throw open the doors of the single sex female changing facilities for a man to swan around in. Nobody caring or accountable if any woman feels so uncomfortable or distressed that they are in essence deprived of toilets, washing facilities or a decent space to change in. He won’t have menstrual hygiene needs, but he get to deprive her of the ones placed there for her use.

Something ‘blocker’, isn’t it? But the hospital colluding to allow him to call the shots.

Thank you - wow, that's shocking.

I had no idea that changing your sex on the GMC register was possible until reading about this case. And I'm a doctor.

Popping in to join the Fife massive. 👋SP is an absolute legend.

I'm just thinking of the average, over-capacity, stowed A&E and trying to reconcile it with someone who works in one needing 2 weeks/months (?) off to recover from the emotional upset of whatever [waves virtual hand in direction of ET] this is.

This is not Kirrin Medcalfe whose role had been Head of Diversity (?) for Stonewall, Upton is practising in A&E for NHS Fife.

The dissonance is strong.

I've no wish to be cynical but have to wonder if the absence was part of an advised HR manoeuvre to shore up grounds for SP's suspension.

From my extensive knowledge of tv medical shows, cupboards are a handy place for staff to have a cry/panic/hide when things get too much.

Yes, but you may have been taught the old biology, and so might have even laboured under the apparent misapprehension that sex is an immutable characteristic.

JR dismissed any relevance of Ray Blanchard’s work as it was 40 years ago and so couldn’t be relevant.

I hope the tribunal will discuss the huge problem of sexual assaults including staff on staff in hospitals.
https://www.bmj.com/content/381/bmj.p1105

there’s even a support group that women medics set up:
www.survivinginscrubs.co.uk

Quickly adds Blahaj (the Ikea shark) to the Bingo card.

We need to start responding to these attempts at shaming by saying that actually, we don't know if you're a rapist/paedo/consumer of violent porn/upskirter/domestic abuser etc etc, and we're not going to apologise for acknowledging that. If men don't like it, that's tough. This is the reality of the world that women live in.

Borrowing a TV idea that someone proposed.

#NotAllSnakes Men who say "Not All Men" are introduced to a variety of snakes. Not all of them are venomous. They're invited to climb into a pit with them.