NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board - thread #2

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

First thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

It's being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr

No. They're livestreamed and that's it. There is a possibility of a transcript being available at some point in the future but I wouldn't count on it.

I've been at work this morning, just caught up with Tribunal Tweets over lunch. That cross-examination sums up everything that's wrong with gender identity ideology. Women must be coerced or forced into putting men's wishes ahead of their own safety, dignity and comfort at all times, and if they dare to object, they're the bullies and they need to be browbeaten into submission. I think I'm glad I wasn't watching, just reading it back made me quite angry enough. That brave woman, being subjected to such an ordeal, it's horrible.

This. This. Its this. I am so sick of simple basic things being made complicated. This is not a complicated question.

The issue is really bloody simple.

The whole gender bollocks essentially boils down to one question for society.

'Are men more important than women?'

That's it really. If they are, then sure what they want matters more than what women need. If they aren't, then what women need for fairness, dignity and safety is what society should go with.

Both SP and DU are employees and were both representing their employer at the time of the incident (s) and complaints.

The issue is should the hospital have provided true single sex spaces for their employees. Should they have taken SPs initial enquiries/complaints seriously.

The hospital effectively has to show they did not discriminate against either SP or DU. The obvious answer was a third space. This respects sex and gender reassignment by providing appropriate changing rooms that respect female and transgender employees right to privacy and treated them both with dignity and respect.

There is real outrage that SP has named DU as the second respondent. It’s actually a clever move.

Remember DU could potentially have taken a case to ET naming the hospital and SP but as far as I’m aware didn’t.

Sandie is an absolute heroine. Not sure how she is holding it together under such aggressive questioning.

I find it ironic that JR is going on so much about SP not using female pronouns for a male. When JR refers to Upton as ‘he’ a few times herself. I hope NC calls her out on not reaching the standards of using incorrect sex pronouns she is admonishing others for. No greater crime really, it seems, so maybe JR should willingly go into the dock.

Also do women now have to offer themselves up to be victims if a male wants to transgress women’s boundaries? I think that there used to be campaigns for women to keep alert. Trust your instinct sort of thing. After this, I’d personally be very much avoiding men who behaved like this. Of course, SP could not do that as she had no real options to protect her dignity, privacy or even potential safety. That is why men usually are kept (and keep) out of women’s intimate spaces. I suppose some men have found (and been given carte blanch with it) a loophole that lets them ignore what any decent man would do (in my opinion). They have it all wrapped up. Everyone knows they are men, so their writing of diary entries that may be twisted fictional bunkum, will be taken as Gospel by authorities. Also, knowing he was distressing her, the bit about almost wanting to have her forced to kow-tow to him by her forced presence, and eye contact. I think it is quite nasty really. Knowing some men can escalate their transgressive behaviour.

Thank you @nauticant Im grateful for this thread (though I’m so angry) and will catch up on the tweets later.

Thanks for all the updates wims! And well done to Peggie for standing up to this shite!

It is absolutely ridiculous that so much time is being spent on things that could easily have been avoided because Scottish Government were determined not to listen when women pointed out the problems with the direction of travel. Just like in the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre tribunal, there are really important, already stretched services, wasting resource and capacity on tribunals instead of getting on with the work. It was obvious that the TRA approach of TW can do whatever they want and everyone else has to applaud it would come unstuck eventually and those still applauding should be thanking people like Peggie for stopping it before it gets to the point where it negatively affects everyone.

Agree. All that forensic focus on the behaviour of the individuals involved, when the core issue is that the NHS decided on their staff's behalf that special men are permitted to access women's changing rooms.

Day two morning part 1

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1886698491147104343.html

Day two morning part 2

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1886740963789266953.html

I'm a lawyer, and it's a weird line of questioning that's not very useful. She can't be expected to know how other people felt. All she can say is 'I accept that person said they felt that way', which doesn't get us very far. For cross examination, the questions are supposed to be leading.

With Labour still maintaining that there is no issue with the EA and how it is being interpreted. Honestly this case is making me rage 😡

They are lying, cowardly arses.

Can't wait for Maya. I hope she points out that JR is trying to compel her / SP to lie in court to appease the feelings of one man, even though to do so will be equally if not more offensive to SP and many others.

Surely the truth and facts should be what matters in law or the law becomes unworkable. The fact is, Upton is a man.

Also I'm horrified the NHS trust is prioritising a man's feelings over female patients' informed consent. If everyone's using 'she/her' for Upton the first time a female patient will know he's a male is when they see him at which point they may feel too intimidated to ask for a female.

The hospital effectively has to show they did not discriminate against either SP or DU.

They don’t need to show they did not discriminate against DU, that is not what is being argued.

With Labour still maintaining that there is no issue with the EA and how it is being interpreted.

Without a GRC it has been settled that men are still legally men and have to right to expect entitlement to female spaces.

Having DU as a second respondent presumably means a court appearance which will clarify the question of whether DU’s sex was obvious in a way that nothing else would achieve.

It should put paid to people imagining Hayley from Corronation Street when they consider who is using women’s changing rooms.

It’s a very smart move and I’m very glad the judge has allowed it.

Will Upton be the first trans identified man to be cross examined in these cases? All previous cases I can think of they have succeeded in staying out of court.

@PriOn1 there are photos of him on Twitter. He's a bearded man dressed in men's clothes in all photos I've seen.

How could you forget the person who required an emotional support dog and 3 support people in the Bailey case?!

I think you might be right.

I can only remember trans identified women giving evidence.

x.com/keithmansfield/status/1886575567593492745?s=46&t=jhZJxSACdgGCRMBipVm5ng

I hate to police this thread but just bear in mind that this thread will be monitored by trans allies/activists and I expect that some screenshots will end up being provided to counsel for Upton to be used in front of the tribunal.

@DemeraraAbyss you are correct this case is not about whether the hospital discriminated against DU. My point was an employer should in general not discriminate against either SP or DU.
The lack of legal clarity around the definition of sex in the EA2010 along with Stonewall etc. has made it difficult for employers to realise what the EA2010 means in practice.

I think he's ditched the beard.

NC is back in the room switching her laptop on, checking her phone