Stonewall change definition of transphobia - questioning gender identity ok now

[fromorbit]

Huge climb down. Looks like those pesky terf women were right all along AGAIN.

Saying that trans women are men is no longer "transphobic" according to Stonewall.

Dennis give good analysis and provides text:
1/ The gender borg have every right to be furious with @stonewalluk for sneakily ditching their belief in gender identity in their new definition of transphobia. Political transvestitism holds that men in dresses have soul-like female gender identities - Stonewall now denies this
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1885735444836388921.html

The reverse weasel move is an attempt to find a safe place to claim lost ground, but opens them up to attack from TA fanatics as well as looking more absurd to normal people. They staked everything on hating women and gay people and now want to retreat when it is unpopular.

Or if we recognize who they are, and they go to school, and they're being bullied and misgendered, would we stand up for them ?

Being correctly sexed is not an issue. Thats the sex you are. I would hope teachers did this due to the sheer rates of detransitioning.

Forcing others to use wrong sex pronouns IS bullying and controlling.

I am always nonplussed when someone tries to tell me that instead of loving and accepting children for who they are in the bodies they were born in so they can grow up confident and free, we should instead tell them they’re broken and need new pronouns, medical interventions and to spend the rest of their lives demanding validation that they’re actually someone else.

Scouse friends tell me that there are two types of people in England: people from Liverpool and people who wish they were from Liverpool.

Well put, that should be a standard/automatic response on all threads like this!

Well that shows a touching faith in the medical profession. Psychiatry has concocted some brutal treatment regimes such as lobotomy and electroconvulsive therapy based on very little actual evidence and other branches of medicine have had their own disasters/scandals such the recent blood borne virus inquiry.

The desire to affirm an identity is not a right that should come before safeguarding.

Some people have extreme plastic surgery which leaves them with massively distorted features and looks bloody awful. The medical profession seems to think this is fine as they are making lots of money from it so forgive me if I take what American doctors who have a vested interest in patients for life say is good.

Well... I am sure that the paragraph you have posted in not biased at all..

https://www.hrc.org/resources/get-the-facts-on-gender-affirming-care

On the same page, they publish misinformation about detransitioning too.

So, you have no links at all to support this misinformation that you have posted?

"The scientific definition on transgender people is that in their development, the brain developed in a way that it does not match the body."

Please stop posting misinformation. It is harmful to those who read and who will then believe it.

@Janine2363 You’ve cited ‘every single major medical organisation’ and gone on to name three, all of which are in the US, where medicine is very big business. Are you oblivious to what’s going on in ‘gender affirming care’ in other countries, especially in Europe?

Janice is quoting the completely robust and reliable source of Wikipedia in their posts. I don’t think this is a person we should take seriously.

Sorry, it took me some time, but here are links to studies.

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early
age
https://www.ese-hormones.org/media/ei0psrhz/transgender-brains-are-more-like-their-desired-gender-from-an-early-age.pdf

Regards

Indeed, but it seems like the most brutal were to force people back to what others thought normal.

We have the infamous 'conversion therapies' for homosexual people, then the same for transgender, then people found out (fortunately) that that doesn't work, but very unfortunately it seems that all those lessons were forgotten and we're back at square zero

It is a tad depressing, that we still try to shoehorn people in a mold fit for the environment rather than fit for themselves :-(

I totally agree to that !

Especially for young people, over the years it was found that about 80% of the minors who sought and received good care could figure out for themselves that they were not transgender (N.B figuring out for themselves is self identification: Knowing who you are).

For me this suggests that good & accessible transgender care for minors is very important. Not forgetting the 20% that suffer from dysphoria and are helped in their journey.

This was, as I understood it, one of the conclusions of the Cass report, there are definitely things to improve. I also read feedback from transgender care organizations in Europe who noted that most, if not all recommendations for the UK were already in place over there.

The thing they disagreed on though was the approach. The Cass report suggest 'double blind' tests, which means you deliberately does not help some. The other health care organizations thought that unethical (deliberately not helping) also with the argument that in psychology that is hardly ever done that way

Did you read through the study in that first link?

Aside from the incredibly small sample sizes and use of ideological language, the poster you are replying to said - 'not the one that never controlled for same sex attraction and made a stronger conclusion than the evidence showed'.

The authors themselves acknowledge that such factors were not addressed in their testing.

And again, even the authors themselves admit that, even with (dubiously evidenced) differences in the brain between 'cisgender' females, 'cisgender' males and males who identify as trans (which appears to mainly focus on the very obvious sex based difference of brain size between men and women), the brains of men who identify as trans still aligns far more closely to that of 'cisgender' males.

They don't get a 'ladybrain'.

It is nowadays not easy to find good information, so it is good to read more and ask questions, but perhaps just claiming misinformation has its own bias.

But it is a good point, there is actually information on detransitioning. It appears though that a major reason was being discriminated, which if true, would be really sad.

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9516050/

The most common reasons cited were pressure from a parent (36%), transitioning was too hard (33%), too much harassment or discrimination (31%), and trouble getting a job (29%).

It is also the talk of the day in the US, which nowaday's is as transgender 'friendly' as your average fundamental religious theocracy. I admit not liking at all what's happening over there, so perhaps I am biased too. Anyway from the US opponents themselves. Their report on harms.

"The 409-page report claimed that while the harms of such medical treatment are “sparse”, medical treatment should be avoided in favor of therapy for youth diagnosed with gender dysphoria."

Well, thank you

Can we be a bit friendlier please !

I actually came to this forum because I had a question & looking for more information: A friend of my son is transgender, how other parents approach it.

And now suddenly it is upon me to provide all the worlds evidence ? I don't mind passing on the info which I found and look for more. But as this is public info, anyone can find it.

So I don't see why you'd want to argue with me. Because that's what it seems, and it is not helpful (to me) (and sorry if I sound a bit harsh myself)

I don’t think causation for having a gender identity is of much relevance to most issues raised on FWR. Whether it is a developmental condition, mental health condition, or part of normal human variation, males are males and females are females and in some aspects of life this matters.

I think causation is relevant to finding a cure or treatment for those who experience it as an affliction. It would also help those who feel blamed for making a bad ‘choice’ when they experience their gender identity as being outside of their control.

As for the second study, it's an abstract from a press conference for an International Conference in 2018 and identified the need for further research. The only other research I can find easily after 2018/2019 from the author Dr Julie Bakker which again addresses the same sort of testing/imaging is from 2023 and even the abstract reads

'We found some evidence in favor of the sexual differentiation hypothesis at the functional level, but this was less evident at the structural level. We also observed some specific transgender neural signatures, suggesting that they might present a unique brain phenotype rather than being shifted towards either end of the male-female spectrum. Our results further suggest that the years between childhood and mid-adolescence represent an important period in which puberty-related factors influence several neural characteristics, such as white matter development and functional connectivity patterns, in both a sex and gender identity specific way. These latter observations thus lead to the important question about the possible negative consequences of delaying puberty on neurodevelopment. To further address this question, larger-scale, longitudinal studies are required to increase our understanding of the possible neurodevelopmental impacts of delaying puberty in transgender youth.'

The study from 2018 involved young people (no ages given as it's a press release/abstract rather than a full published study) despite the evidence that the human brain doesn't develop fully until the age of 25.

In fact I am getting aware on what's going on in Europe, thanks to the Cass report and what European health & transgender care organizations replied to that.

My impression is that it is quite a bit better organized, but there too a risk of being overwhelmed in particular by the amount of minors seeking help in figuring out who they are.

The biggest take away though is that being transgender is in western Europe as normal as anything and in particular (as where to I gave my first reply) in their societies people simply seem to respect how transgender people ask to be named. Also no scare on toilet use etc. Less 'culture wars'.

If I'd be the parent of a transgender child, I think I might prefer being there ...

And now suddenly it is upon me to provide all the worlds evidence ?

Well yes, if you make such ridiculous outlandish statements you’re expected to back them up.

Actually reading and analysing links that you gave as evidence is now not being 'friendly enough'?

Oh dear.

Yes, and this is the reason why I came looking for experience of other parents

My son had a friend: Vince, he came regularly over to play at ours, or my son at theirs.

Recently I noticed he'd no come to visit us for a while, so I asked my son. After some tenuous moments my son said: "Well, she is now Vanessa"

"Is she still welcome to come here ?"

Well of course she is ! And how would I approach here ? Well, she;s Vanessa now isn't she ? Should I tell her that she is he : "No Vanessa, you got it all wrong, your Vince, you just have to be happy in the body you were given and behave like a man !"

If I did that, knowing my son, oh, how angry he would be with me. My son is kindhearted friendly, he even does the dishes without me needing to ask. Go figure :-)

If I did, should Vanessa be willing to come to our place, would she feel welcome.

At school, should I tell my son to stay away from "him" and not call her "her" ?

Vanessa when she did visit us again was in fact happy, not broken, just herself. And she befriended my daughter as well :-)

Correlation is not causation.

I can point you to studies which show the extremist brain and how it differs from the average person. The interesting thing is how the brain changes if the person concerned stops looking at very narrow views and is exposed to a range of views.

We also have never identified a 'female' brain. That's sexist nonsense. They can not tell the difference between socialisation and an innate sense of anything because we simply do not understand the brain well enough.

And yes exposure to ideas has been demonstrated to change the brain.

So how can we possibly eliminate the influence of childhood abuse, trauma or the role of parental influence?! The key point here being that we KNOW there is a link in the backgrounds of those who present as trans. We can demonstrate that. Something occurring spontaneously and innately would not show this type of pattern.

And if the brain is this plastic and trans activism is acting in an extreme cult like way, then the research in others areas is hugely relevant and important.

As I say there is no demonstrable 'lady brain' or 'male brain' in science.

@Janine2363
I'm going to assume that you’re posting in good faith and out of wanting to “be kind” you’ve followed some very dodgy science, believed captured organisations and activist led opinion rather than actual evidence.

Have you read the Cass report? Actually read it yourself not read others’ opinions on it or what they have told you it says? If you have then I’d love to hear your thoughts on why the methodology is flawed (again, your thoughts, not what activists have told you it says).

There is also so much incorrect information in your post about menopause and HRT and effects on men that it’s hard to know where to start but I’ll give it a go.
1 There isn’t a consensus on why women experience the mood and emotional changes they do in (peri)menopause. It’s not as simple as saying it’s the reduction of Oestrogen levels because many women experience these symptoms during perimenopause when their Oestrogen levels are normal. There is some thought that it may be related to fluctuating O levels but it’s not clear. There are also so many confounding factors that influence mood that it’s hard to tease apart. For many women changes in menopause coincide with children leaving home, caring for older relatives, realisation of the end of reproductive role of our bodies, sexism and ageism at work and in society. You can’t just say it’s O levels doing it.

2 Men who have O are not at increased risk of suicide. The fact you’ve brought Alan Turing into this is frankly crass. He was a brilliant, complex man who was treated despicably by the UK state so to say the reason he committed suicide was because he had DSB is offensive and diminishes him and what he suffered.

3 There is no reliable evidence of “trans” brains. To start with how would you assess it? What are you measuring? Size of different parts of the brain on MRI doesn’t necessarily correlate to function. Brains get small as we age and on average women’s brains are smaller than men’s so are we saying that people become more female as they age? No. Because it’s clearly nonsense. So if not size, then what? Functional MRI? Measure how trans people’s brains light up to stimuli compared to male and female people? Again, so many confounding factors in that. And we haven’t even got on to neuroplasticity yet.

And no, the medical community is not in agreement with all this. Most of us are horrified by the anti science anti evidence based practice that this movement demands of us.

You're not being piled on with requests for evidence but the thing about this board and those of us that have been here some time is that if you make assertions or statements of fact you will be asked what your rationale or evidence is for that. Women here have spent years looking at this but we still continue to ask ourselves whether we’re right, whether we’ve missed something so when people make assertions we like to check for ourselves. Unfortunately what usually happens is the person making the claims has either hugely misunderstood and in which case if they stick around and discuss it they might see why they’re wrong. Or they’re not ready for challenges to their world view so they get cross or flounce. If you’re really interested rather than here just to scold us (as happens so often) then stick around and discuss!