Page 6 | Stonewall change definition of transphobia - questioning gender identity ok now

fromorbit · 2025-02-02T18:23:48+00:00

Huge climb down. Looks like those pesky terf women were right all along AGAIN. Saying that trans women are men is no longer "transphobic" according to Stonewall. Dennis give good analysis and provides text: ^1/ The gender borg have every right to be furious with @stonewalluk for sneakily ditching their belief in gender identity in their new definition of transphobia. Political transvestitism holds that men in dresses have soul-like female gender identities - Stonewall now denies this^ [[https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1885735444836388921.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1885735444836388921.html]] The reverse weasel move is an attempt to find a safe place to claim lost ground, but opens them up to attack from TA fanatics as well as looking more absurd to normal people. They staked everything on hating women and gay people and now want to retreat when it is unpopular.

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 10:54

However, imagine a transgender colleague at work, and on purpose, misgendering that person, that would be rude, and persistently doing so would be bigoted, because it is 'reasonable' to do not see a transgender in a certain way, but it is 'unreasonable' to behave like that, because of ones belief.

Is it?

Using wrong sex pronouns is not a neutral act. Social transition in schools is now actively discouraged for a reason.

Why does someone have the right to demand others use those pronouns?

It's like demanding another employee says grace before eating in the staff canteen because otherwise it's disrespectful to someone else's belief.

It's bollocks.

Janine2363 · 17/06/2025 11:01

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 08:16

This.

I can PROVE that men are not women. Therefore it's not an unreasonable belief. Because it's not a belief. It's a provable fact. It's just that legally it falls under the protection of being a belief - but it's based on the point that it's a demonstrable fact based on science. Thus all scientific work which demonstrates something is protected because democracy society values scientific work and it should not be sidelined and/or prohibited by religious zealots because otherwise this destroys the foundations of democracy.

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Yes, scientific understanding of genetics, but next to that is also the biology and the process of development. The scientific definition on transgender people is that in their development, the brain developed in a way that it does not match the body. This by itself is not strange, because the development of the body is hugely dependent on and sensitive to hormones. In particular the brain. For instance menopausal women have a risk on depression because of loss of hormone balance. The medication used for treatment (hormone supplement) is interestingly the same as used for trans women. Which for this reason are biologically different from men. A man subjected to female hormones would risk an acute depression with a high probability of suicide. This is what happened to the WW2 hero Alan Turing. He was homosexual at the time it was a criminal offence, he has subjected to a forced hormone therapy .... and killed himself. For transgender people with significant dysphoria it is the other way around, the have a depression and the change fixes it. That's all

CassOle · 17/06/2025 11:07

If the brain difference was genuine, reliable and identifiable, then we would be able to detect which gender questioning children were 'true trans' and which were just questioning. We would also be able to use that medical test to differentiate between 'true trans', questioning (but not actually trans) and AGPs before Gender Recognition Certificates were given out, to ensure that only the 'true trans' got one.

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 11:10

Janine2363 · 17/06/2025 11:01

Yes, scientific understanding of genetics, but next to that is also the biology and the process of development. The scientific definition on transgender people is that in their development, the brain developed in a way that it does not match the body. This by itself is not strange, because the development of the body is hugely dependent on and sensitive to hormones. In particular the brain. For instance menopausal women have a risk on depression because of loss of hormone balance. The medication used for treatment (hormone supplement) is interestingly the same as used for trans women. Which for this reason are biologically different from men. A man subjected to female hormones would risk an acute depression with a high probability of suicide. This is what happened to the WW2 hero Alan Turing. He was homosexual at the time it was a criminal offence, he has subjected to a forced hormone therapy .... and killed himself. For transgender people with significant dysphoria it is the other way around, the have a depression and the change fixes it. That's all

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Give it a rest.

'born in the wrong body' is discredited as a concept to be taught.

HermioneWeasley · 17/06/2025 11:11

Janine2363 · 17/06/2025 11:01

Yes, scientific understanding of genetics, but next to that is also the biology and the process of development. The scientific definition on transgender people is that in their development, the brain developed in a way that it does not match the body. This by itself is not strange, because the development of the body is hugely dependent on and sensitive to hormones. In particular the brain. For instance menopausal women have a risk on depression because of loss of hormone balance. The medication used for treatment (hormone supplement) is interestingly the same as used for trans women. Which for this reason are biologically different from men. A man subjected to female hormones would risk an acute depression with a high probability of suicide. This is what happened to the WW2 hero Alan Turing. He was homosexual at the time it was a criminal offence, he has subjected to a forced hormone therapy .... and killed himself. For transgender people with significant dysphoria it is the other way around, the have a depression and the change fixes it. That's all

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This is at best an unverified theory

TWETMIRF · 17/06/2025 11:18

What a load of bollocks

Nameychangington · 17/06/2025 11:41

The scientific definition on transgender people is that in their development, the brain developed in a way that it does not match the body.

Which brains match which bodies? How do I know if my brain matches my body? What if my brain is the brain of a 25 year old Japanese man but I'm a 50 year old Pakistani woman?

No one seriously believes this stuff, do they?

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 11:42

Nameychangington · 17/06/2025 11:41

The scientific definition on transgender people is that in their development, the brain developed in a way that it does not match the body.

Which brains match which bodies? How do I know if my brain matches my body? What if my brain is the brain of a 25 year old Japanese man but I'm a 50 year old Pakistani woman?

No one seriously believes this stuff, do they?

I think they do...

Helleofabore · 17/06/2025 11:44

Janine2363 · 17/06/2025 11:01

Yes, scientific understanding of genetics, but next to that is also the biology and the process of development. The scientific definition on transgender people is that in their development, the brain developed in a way that it does not match the body. This by itself is not strange, because the development of the body is hugely dependent on and sensitive to hormones. In particular the brain. For instance menopausal women have a risk on depression because of loss of hormone balance. The medication used for treatment (hormone supplement) is interestingly the same as used for trans women. Which for this reason are biologically different from men. A man subjected to female hormones would risk an acute depression with a high probability of suicide. This is what happened to the WW2 hero Alan Turing. He was homosexual at the time it was a criminal offence, he has subjected to a forced hormone therapy .... and killed himself. For transgender people with significant dysphoria it is the other way around, the have a depression and the change fixes it. That's all

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There is no study that shows reliably that people's brains have 'developed in a way that does not match the body'.

If you have a link that proves this (and not the one that never controlled for same sex attraction and made a stronger conclusion than the evidence showed) please link it up. Otherwise, please stop spreading harmful misinformation.

RhymesWithOrange · 17/06/2025 11:49

What a load of tosh @Janine2363. There is no "scientific definition on transgender people". There is no transgender brain. There is a medical condition of body dysmorphia. There's also a sexual fetish called autogynephilia. Minority sexual fetishes are not protected characteristics, and their public expression are not a human right.

Kucinghitam · 17/06/2025 11:50

It's like the unwritten chapter of Just So Stories

Hoardasurass · 17/06/2025 12:36

Janine2363 · 17/06/2025 11:01

Yes, scientific understanding of genetics, but next to that is also the biology and the process of development. The scientific definition on transgender people is that in their development, the brain developed in a way that it does not match the body. This by itself is not strange, because the development of the body is hugely dependent on and sensitive to hormones. In particular the brain. For instance menopausal women have a risk on depression because of loss of hormone balance. The medication used for treatment (hormone supplement) is interestingly the same as used for trans women. Which for this reason are biologically different from men. A man subjected to female hormones would risk an acute depression with a high probability of suicide. This is what happened to the WW2 hero Alan Turing. He was homosexual at the time it was a criminal offence, he has subjected to a forced hormone therapy .... and killed himself. For transgender people with significant dysphoria it is the other way around, the have a depression and the change fixes it. That's all

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Except turin wasn't given cross sex hormones he was chemically castrated with puberty blockers.
Add to that your claims about scientific definition of transgenderism has repeatedly been shown to be bs and not backed by any reliable evidence. Also trans people are at no higher risk of suicide than any other group, however once they transition their risk of suicide is increased from before in large part due to the effect of the cross sex hormones and/or surgeries that they've taken/had.
So basically everything you've said in your post is the complete opposite of what is known provable fact.

BezMills · 17/06/2025 14:58

The entirely unfounded theory of trans brain is transphobic nonsense that would instantly invalidate 99% of people with transgender identities.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 17/06/2025 15:26

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 10:54

However, imagine a transgender colleague at work, and on purpose, misgendering that person, that would be rude, and persistently doing so would be bigoted, because it is 'reasonable' to do not see a transgender in a certain way, but it is 'unreasonable' to behave like that, because of ones belief.

Is it?

Using wrong sex pronouns is not a neutral act. Social transition in schools is now actively discouraged for a reason.

Why does someone have the right to demand others use those pronouns?

It's like demanding another employee says grace before eating in the staff canteen because otherwise it's disrespectful to someone else's belief.

It's bollocks.

I think it's more like if you come from Liverpool and you have a colleague who comes from Essex but insists on doing a bad Scouser impersonation and joking about stealing cars together, but instead of your boss telling him he's well out of order, your boss tells you you have to agree with him that he is indeed from Liverpool and that you do share a lot in common.

RayonSunrise · 17/06/2025 15:32

@FlirtsWithRhinos Surely it’s more accurate to say you come from Liverpool and your colleague comes from Essex, but insists on speaking to you on an exaggerated Scouse accent and telling you to respect their Liverpudlian identity or be reported for hate crimes.

BeGreatKhakiOtter · 17/06/2025 15:40

People from Essex ARE Liverpudlians, #NoDebate
😎

Coatsoff42 · 17/06/2025 15:59

Janine2363 · 17/06/2025 11:01

Yes, scientific understanding of genetics, but next to that is also the biology and the process of development. The scientific definition on transgender people is that in their development, the brain developed in a way that it does not match the body. This by itself is not strange, because the development of the body is hugely dependent on and sensitive to hormones. In particular the brain. For instance menopausal women have a risk on depression because of loss of hormone balance. The medication used for treatment (hormone supplement) is interestingly the same as used for trans women. Which for this reason are biologically different from men. A man subjected to female hormones would risk an acute depression with a high probability of suicide. This is what happened to the WW2 hero Alan Turing. He was homosexual at the time it was a criminal offence, he has subjected to a forced hormone therapy .... and killed himself. For transgender people with significant dysphoria it is the other way around, the have a depression and the change fixes it. That's all

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And yet men are the most likely to commit suicide, not involving hormones or anything like that. Just ordinary men, I don’t think the risk of suicide in a man increases to the risk of suicide of a menopausal woman when he takes female hormones, it’s already ridiculously high.
My experience of suicide in men is linked to shame in some way: shame around money problems, or an affair, or a crime or something else they can’t live with people knowing about. Just what I have seen, mostly debt related.

Tiredofwhataboutery · 17/06/2025 16:07

I think it’s important to remember that stonewall is a lobbying group. If it isn’t working they will pull back try any make it more palatable, give it another go, another day.

Do we really think all those quiet and cosy chats with government bods have gone? Scottish government interrupted the normal process to ensure stonewall was approved for funding.

I feel like I’d be really disinclined to give them an inch as they’d take the whole bloody mile.

Janine2363 · 17/06/2025 16:10

Hoardasurass · 17/06/2025 12:36

Except turin wasn't given cross sex hormones he was chemically castrated with puberty blockers.
Add to that your claims about scientific definition of transgenderism has repeatedly been shown to be bs and not backed by any reliable evidence. Also trans people are at no higher risk of suicide than any other group, however once they transition their risk of suicide is increased from before in large part due to the effect of the cross sex hormones and/or surgeries that they've taken/had.
So basically everything you've said in your post is the complete opposite of what is known provable fact.

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He received synthetic estrogens as well. If not transgender, you would not want this to happen to anyone, it is incredibly cruel.

Turing was convicted and given a choice between imprisonment and probation. His probation would be conditional on his agreement to undergo hormonal physical changes designed to reduce libido, known as "chemical castration".[170] He accepted the option of injections of what was then called stilboestrol (now known as diethylstilbestrol or DES), a synthetic oestrogen; this feminization of his body was continued for the course of one year. The treatment rendered Turing impotent and caused breast tissue to form. In a letter, Turing wrote that "no doubt I shall emerge from it all a different man, but quite who I've not found out".

Janine2363 · 17/06/2025 16:14

HermioneWeasley · 17/06/2025 11:11

This is at best an unverified theory

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Well, science is about verification of theory. The medical community seems to think that way, and thus what the consider the best approach to transgender care.

"Every single major medical organization, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, and the American Psychiatric Association, supports the provision of age-appropriate, gender-affirming care for transgender and non-binary people. These organizations represent millions of doctors, researchers, and mental health professionals in the United States. Gender-affirming care has always existed and isn’t a new phenomenon"

HermioneWeasley · 17/06/2025 16:20

Janine2363 · 17/06/2025 16:14

Well, science is about verification of theory. The medical community seems to think that way, and thus what the consider the best approach to transgender care.

"Every single major medical organization, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, and the American Psychiatric Association, supports the provision of age-appropriate, gender-affirming care for transgender and non-binary people. These organizations represent millions of doctors, researchers, and mental health professionals in the United States. Gender-affirming care has always existed and isn’t a new phenomenon"

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In the meantime rhe rest of the world is stopping “gender affirming care” (child mutilation) because it has no good evidence base to support it. Try reading the Cass report

Janine2363 · 17/06/2025 16:21

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 10:54

However, imagine a transgender colleague at work, and on purpose, misgendering that person, that would be rude, and persistently doing so would be bigoted, because it is 'reasonable' to do not see a transgender in a certain way, but it is 'unreasonable' to behave like that, because of ones belief.

Is it?

Using wrong sex pronouns is not a neutral act. Social transition in schools is now actively discouraged for a reason.

Why does someone have the right to demand others use those pronouns?

It's like demanding another employee says grace before eating in the staff canteen because otherwise it's disrespectful to someone else's belief.

It's bollocks.

Well, as we are here (on this site) as parents, and concerned about our children and how they are treated (I have two adolescents)

Imaging having a trans daughter, or son. If they are and as parent you insist it is not true, is that in their best interest ?

Or if we recognize who they are, and they go to school, and they're being bullied and misgendered, would we stand up for them ?

It is not about rights as in "Why does someone have the right to demand others use those pronouns?"

It is about: How would you like others to treat your own child ! Or in case you are
that child yourself, how would you want to be treated.

Even simpler: Why would you not use the pronouns befitting that person, it is not as if it costs us something not ?

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 16:29

Janine2363 · 17/06/2025 16:21

Well, as we are here (on this site) as parents, and concerned about our children and how they are treated (I have two adolescents)

Imaging having a trans daughter, or son. If they are and as parent you insist it is not true, is that in their best interest ?

Or if we recognize who they are, and they go to school, and they're being bullied and misgendered, would we stand up for them ?

It is not about rights as in "Why does someone have the right to demand others use those pronouns?"

It is about: How would you like others to treat your own child ! Or in case you are
that child yourself, how would you want to be treated.

Even simpler: Why would you not use the pronouns befitting that person, it is not as if it costs us something not ?

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Here we go again, 'it doesn't cost anything'.

Yes. Yes it does. Its not a neutral act.

Adopting pronouns makes it much harder for CHILDREN to change their mind for starters.

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 16:29

FlirtsWithRhinos · 17/06/2025 15:26

I think it's more like if you come from Liverpool and you have a colleague who comes from Essex but insists on doing a bad Scouser impersonation and joking about stealing cars together, but instead of your boss telling him he's well out of order, your boss tells you you have to agree with him that he is indeed from Liverpool and that you do share a lot in common.

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Oh dear....

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/great-liverpool-debate-who-plastic-3370843

https://bigliverpoolguide.co.uk/scouse-wool-liverpools-big-debate-settled/

There's a whole debate on who is a scouser, who is a woolyback and who is a plastic scouser already. Can we not bring Essex into it too please?!

Does the Essex lad have a purple wheelie bin?

Scouse or Wool: Liverpool’s Big Debate…Settled - Big Liverpool Guide

In Liverpool, there is one debate which never fails to stir trouble and ignite feuds and that is; Scouser or Wool.

https://bigliverpoolguide.co.uk/scouse-wool-liverpools-big-debate-settled/

PrettyDamnCosmic · 17/06/2025 16:31

Janine2363 · 17/06/2025 16:21

Well, as we are here (on this site) as parents, and concerned about our children and how they are treated (I have two adolescents)

Imaging having a trans daughter, or son. If they are and as parent you insist it is not true, is that in their best interest ?

Or if we recognize who they are, and they go to school, and they're being bullied and misgendered, would we stand up for them ?

It is not about rights as in "Why does someone have the right to demand others use those pronouns?"

It is about: How would you like others to treat your own child ! Or in case you are
that child yourself, how would you want to be treated.

Even simpler: Why would you not use the pronouns befitting that person, it is not as if it costs us something not ?

Show quote history

As there is no such thing as a "trans" child how can they be misgendered? Personal pronouns befitting the child will be those appropriate to their sex just as they have been since birth & those are the pronouns that should be used by others.