Stonewall change definition of transphobia - questioning gender identity ok now

[fromorbit]

Huge climb down. Looks like those pesky terf women were right all along AGAIN.

Saying that trans women are men is no longer "transphobic" according to Stonewall.

Dennis give good analysis and provides text:
1/ The gender borg have every right to be furious with @stonewalluk for sneakily ditching their belief in gender identity in their new definition of transphobia. Political transvestitism holds that men in dresses have soul-like female gender identities - Stonewall now denies this
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1885735444836388921.html

The reverse weasel move is an attempt to find a safe place to claim lost ground, but opens them up to attack from TA fanatics as well as looking more absurd to normal people. They staked everything on hating women and gay people and now want to retreat when it is unpopular.

If you are going to post falsehoods that have already been debunked then expect pushback and requests for clarification. If the links you provided are full of unproven facts then of course you are going to be called out.

I think your definition of "friendly" needs to go back to its original meaning too.

'And now suddenly it is upon me to provide all the worlds evidence ? I don't mind passing on the info which I found and look for more. But as this is public info, anyone can find it.'

Do you understand that you are making statements that you cannot support with evidence? Do you understand the harm in do this?

If you cannot support your statements with evidence, after looking, have you thought about why that is, and why you have believed what you have said? You actually said:

'scientific understanding of genetics, but next to that is also the biology and the process of development. The scientific definition on transgender people is that in their development, the brain developed in a way that it does not match the body'.

Do you understand why you are getting the response you are getting?

There are no neurological markers for being transgender. The only commonality shared by all people with a transgender identity is a philosophical belief. It is also a philosophical belief that does not reflect material reality.

For instance, there is a taxi driver study (and I cannot find it, maybe someone else can though, this board is loaded with information) that shows brain scans of people who have the same interests, such as driving and memorising the streets of London, have similar brain scans. They also have identified that male people who are same sex attracted are likely to share similar brain scans.

Hormones have a significant interaction with the brain and this will show up on brain scans. Even when taken exogenously.

The study you posted did not control for same sex attraction in their group. They also stated that those male people with gender identities did not have a 'female' brain scan. So, if a brain develops different patterns due to interests and repeated actions creating different responses, then of course male people with interests that they consider 'female' because they are different from stereotypical male interests, will have scans that group. And if they are taking exogenous estrogen then the brain scans will also differ from male scans who are not taking estrogen.

But they are not female brains.

So, no. Male people with the philosophical belief that doesn't reflect the material reality of their body (even after extreme body modifications) are not born in the 'wrong body'. That is their wishing to have a different body. That is fine, but no one should be expected to act in ways that affirm that.

The more that I read about the 'Trans Child' and their families, the more I began to read the odd case that reminded of Munchausen's by Proxy. Then there were the cases that appeared deeply homophobic, where for the parents a straight 'Trans Child' was preferable to a (probably will grow up to be) Gay Child.

*I am not saying that this is the case for all families with trans identified children as there are definitely further factors at play.

This is a deeply manipulative scenario, and completely opposite to my point. “Vanessa” has been told that he can only be feminine if he is a girl, and that is an abusive act by the adults around him. There was no reason why the child could not grow up as a comfortably feminine boy, and it’s the adult sexism and (likely) homophobia at the root of their actions.

The fact that they need to force their child’s peers, wider community, and school to collude with their sexist worldview is not to be admired in any way.

The issue with Biometry (especially phrenology adjacent nonsense such as "lady brain") is when the vast majority of noisy males instantly fail the tests. Because A they male as all heck and B their very strong feelings about their identity didn't affect their biological parameters, at all)

I mean it's not an issue for me. I would respectfully demure from that bun fight and let the two teams have at it. In the red corner : people whose highest level of science qualifications is "A Meme". In the blue corner : males flunking their lady biometrics and needing a waambulance.

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity

Then, the trained classifier was applied to the PCA-transformed study sample generating the person-specific Brain Sex index—a number representing the degree of femaleness/maleness on a continuum (consistent with the training, a Brain Sex index of “0” signifies the average female brain and a Brain Sex index of “1” the average male brain).

So we’re back to male and female brains again. Putting aside how women are classified as ‘0’ and men as ‘1’ 🤔 it’s notable how that article says preciously little about the ‘trained classifier’ ie the actual machine learning algorithm they (I think) programmed themselves on a couple of hundred brains.

In any event, some men have higher or lower levels of testosterone and women have higher and lower levels of oestrogen and progesterone. This does not make them any less of a man or less of a woman does it?

It is a tad depressing, that we still try to shoehorn people in a mold fit for the environment rather than fit for themselves

You’ll find that almost all regular FWR posters are fully behind people dressing as they want, dating and marrying who they want and living happily. That is not an entry ticket to every space they think they might like to enter. We still need to recognise the reality of our biological selves and the sex dimorphism of men v women and the need to offer protection of SSSs for women because of this.

NB why is it always psychologists and psychiatrists who author these studies?

What should you do?

You welcome the child into your house and treat them as you do other children. And you explain to your own children that people cannot change sex.

I have experienced this. My young teen was in a friend group where out of the seven of them, five had transgender identities. Their friends were all welcome and treated the same as any other of my teen's friends.

However, my teen also is aware that people cannot change sex. And that sometimes sex matters and needs to be treated as a higher priority than gender identity.

In the end though, my teen also found out that I chose to stop using 'they' for their friends and reverted to correct sex pronouns. Because it was very difficult to keep track of all the chosen pronouns and that meant that my discussions about them alone with my teen, was contorted and I understood that I was going out of my way to comply with someone's philosophical belief in a way that I would not do for anyone else's philosophical belief. And why should I lie in that way?

If you want to know why many parents on this board have a depth of understanding about the ideological motivations, the political movement and how it impacts women and girls, then it is because many posters have sought to find answers just like you have.

Regarding the other factors that contribute to 'trans children', this article was posted on 'The failure of social work to safeguard Children in Care' thread and discusses one of these factors.

https://archive.is/3BVZK
Blackpool’s forsaken children
Abused girls are choosing to transition
BY Julie Bindel

'If I did that, knowing my son, oh, how angry he would be with me. My son is kindhearted friendly, he even does the dishes without me needing to ask. Go figure :-)'

Is your son aware of the manipulative power he has over you?

It's always amazing to me how many posters we've seen on this board when asked 'can you back up that statement with evidence' (following the concept of Russell's Teapot) clearly do a quick google and then add random links without reading so much as the abstract, let alone the whole study. And then say 'look!! Evidence!!!'

And as so many times before, when other posters say 'erm, that doesn't prove what you think it does/it's a press release/that study is from 1972', we get a highly emotionally manipulative post at which I suppose we're meant to throw our hands up and say 'you know what! Never mind the (lack of) evidence! Let's all believe what we're told without questions! Because...be kind!'

Yes, angry man controls how woman behaves. Again.

Where are you referring to as being 'better organised' and less 'scare on toilet use'?

I think you will find that at the moment, the clinicians and that government is looking very seriously at what they have allowed to happen in their country in light of the following countries declaring that there is too little evidence to support the current WPATH recommended treatment plans.

I will link up what I can later today. However, the following countries did reviews of the studies and all found there was too little or no evidence to support the treatments (and some were well before Cass).

Sweden
Norway
Finland
Denmark
France
Germany

I hope Vanessa is happy. I hope Vanessa is staying out of the girls sports and their changing rooms. I genuinely think you are treating your son's friend well, but if your son was a daughter would you, for example, let Vanessa sleep over in her room or go swimming with her knowing they would be showering and changing together. Would you want your daughter playing rugby against Vanessa and Vanessa's ladybrain. Vanessa is not like other girls, his brain is irrelevant. His body will always be male, even stunted and scarred by hormones and surgery. the only one he will ever have. I fear for his future.

Yes, we are aware of the study you refer to.

It was from 2015. As you say you know something about this topic, you would know that pre-2015 the numbers for transitioning were small and from then have increased exponentially. Also the treatment plans became more 'affirming only' under the guidance of WPATH.

Even before this though, detransition rates were at least 8-9% in Europe.

A few years ago a UK academic, James Caspian, wanted to do an analysis on detransition numbers in the UK and his study announcement resulted in so much pressure on his university that it did not go ahead. It was considered transphobic for him to do this study.

If I remember rightly, the average time to detransition is 7-8 years and that usually is enough time for people to undergo hormone treatments and surgery. We are about to find out just how fucked up the dismissal of 'less than 1%' detransitioner numbers are that the lobby groups have spread as misinformation.

Such as the dismissal of detransition rates on that link from HRC. Which is the Human Rights CAMPAIGN. ie. a political lobby group and from what I read, not one who seeks to promote balanced information.

So Janine2363, as a child over about 8years old, I would get changed for swimming in with my girl friends.

Since your daughter is now friends with Vanessa, does that mean you will be very happy for your daughter to get changed in front of Vanessa? Would your son insist?

How far does your son expect you to treat Vanessa as being the sex that Vanessa believes they are? After all, if a child is in the 'wrong body', they shouldn't be discriminated against by being excluded from changing with other children of the sex they believe they are, should they?

But they are not female brains

This bears repeating.

Looking at some of the research cited to support the paper posted by @Janine2363 , includes this:

The biological sex of a child immediately influences its social and physical environment, even before birth. Our gendered place in society strongly conditions our life history, concept of self, and reaction to social and nonsocial events81. Parents and teachers create robust sex-specific expectations for children, fostering gendered behavioral development82. The different environments for boys and girls contribute to strong sex differences in choice of occupation and other gender-specific environmental stratification83, no doubt contributing to life-long sex differences in social roles, stress and disease. The sex-specific effects of these differentiated social environments, no doubt pervasive and profound, have long been the purview of social psychology and not a topic integral to the study of brain sexual differentiation. In part, this deficit stems from the difficulty of modeling human social environments in animal models. Studies on humans are also problematic because of confounding sex-specific biological and environmental factors, which makes it impossible to disentangle the effects of the two.

@Janine2363 or course you’re going to be pleasant to your DSs friends and no one here would say to refuse them entry to the house! As another parent here where many of my DCs friends are a mix of NB or trans, I call them by their preferred name, never use pronouns in their presence and treat them exactly as I’ve always done. Fortunately, for most it seems it’s a phase and move from trans to gender fluid. I’m hoping they’ll eventually reclaiming their biological sex rather than an identity. Luckily none had surgery. One boy went on CSH for a while and sadly may now be permanently infertile. I don’t judge but I certainly share the papers on the wider negative implications of CSH etc so that my DC, whilst not GC, are aware of the harsh medical facts.

Edited to add, that I agree it is difficult to find robust and reliable research and that is firmly on health care professionals. Doing a bit of reading makes me despair how much public money is wasted on the craziest and most arcane of research.

By the way, there are actually 'female brains'. As many of us know.

That is the physical structure of a female brain is different to a male brain. That is due to the shape of a female skull which is different to a male skull. And of course there is the impact of the estrogen and progesterone. There are differences in the % of grey vs white matter on average because of the shape and size as dictated by the skull.

But also, the Swansea University also picked up that female brain fibres are more delicate than male brain fibres. This makes them more susceptible to damage and injury.

But again, it is simply impossible for a male person to have a female brain physically.

I'd be willing to bet most of the posters here, certainly those over 40 or 50, didn't know a single trans child when they went to school. Possibly one or two at the lower end. What happened to all those ladybrains in male bodies and fellabrains in female bodies that we went to school with? It can't be lack of acceptance or there'd be tens of thousands of particularly middle aged women declaring they're blokes, they've always been blokes. Or, if tras would have you believe, they'd all have committed suicide. Where is this missing cohort of misaligned brains?

If you come on a site spouting nonsense (that we all know is nonsense because we've read all the papers) as fact yes you will get push back and asked to cite your evidence. If you then cite discredited papers as evidence of your false claims you really should expect even more push back.
Perhaps you should take time to read professor Appleby's report on suicide or the cass review or even polly carmichael's (then head of guids) testimony in the Bell v Tavistock trial where she admitted that trans people were no more likely to kill themselves than any other cahms patient, you would understand that what you are spouting is dangerous discredited nonsense

I'm sure Vince is very nice but I think Vince's parents are abusive so I wouldn't want my children around Vince's parents at any point when I'm not there. So my child would not be going to visit Vince. That makes play dates awkward. But my priority is ultimately safeguarding - thats both for my children and for Vince where I could.

Vince would still be welcome out my house as long as I could get around the receprical playdate expectation somehow. If Vince still came over (because Vince is friends with my child) and my child wanted a sleep over with Vince that wouldn't be happening though.

I couldn't let Vince stay. Its too problematic. If Vince believes he is a girl, then if I put him with my son that could put me at risk from batshit parents (I'm not going to have that conversation with them over this as they can't be reasoned with), theres not a cat in hells chance Vince is sharing with my daughter and I'm damned if I'm going to put myself at potential risk of accusations by sticking him in the spare room by himself. Thus its a completely unworkable situation to the detriment of Vince.

But since social services haven't grasps the red flags of a very young child claiming they are the opposite sex, I can't otherwise do shit with regards to safeguarding Vince.

I would not be calling Vince, Vanessa at any point because social transition is not a neutral act and its not recommended by Cass. Vince needs space away from the meer idea of Vanessa and the pressure to transition from his parents.

Vince is a child who is not capable of making long term decisions about his gender identity because hes too young to understand any of this. Vince is a lovely kid who is being deeply let down by all the adults around him who enable this shit and thing they are being kid by calling him Vanessa.

One day despite how much he's been primed by his parents, hes still going to hit puberty. His parents might try and stop this by using harmful drugs they've bought off a dodgy website on the internet which may not be fully trust worthy, and even if he gets the correct drugs rather than knockoff versions there's still the many side effects to deal with. Or he might have to cope with the trauma of his body changing and no longer being so easy to pass as feminine. This is not a kind situation to put a child in.

Poor Vince. Why did no one spot how much hes being harmed and why did they enable him to be in this situation? Vince has no way out; detransitioning is not acceptable in his parents social circle and his friends social circle where they know him as Vanessa. He's seen whats happened to others who have detransitioned and how could he cope with all the questions about why.

Vince has been sold down river by all the people trying to do the right thing, yet not one of them has put him first because they are all to busy pandering to the 'lovely parents' because they didn't read the safeguarding training which makes the point that abusers can be upstanding members of the community who are utterly charming, so don't trust anyone on that basis. Nor did they consider Vince's ability to express his wishes in the midst of a cult.

And thats why I won't virtue signal to the world how amazing accepting I am of Vince, because wrong sex pronouns and a new name are harmful. I like Vince. Vince is a nice kid who deserves better.

Without the need to cite references or studies, @Janine2363 can I ask whether you believe that there is any quality - found in the brain, the personality, the skills, manner, characteristics of a person - that is found only in one sex and not the other?

If so, what is it?

To my knowledge anyone can have any type of brain and it has zero bearing in what sex they are. So "being good at spatial reasoning" wouldn't categorise you as male even though as an entire class of humans, men tend to be slightly better than women in this area.

Treating a mental illness is never about forcing someone back to normal. What a strange thing to think?
Medicine is just not as robust as it would have us believe. I think the use of puberty blockers in children who are gender incongruent is a huge medical scandal sitting in the wings. If you have time I recommend the New York Times podcast 'The Protocol'. It charts how the often cited Dutch Protocol developed a clinical management approach using therapy and assessments over a long period of time to identify the very small number of children likely to have real gender dysphoria. Once imported to the US the protocol was quickly watered down due to cost/lack of trained staff and became affirmative instead. I don't think any child should receive puberty blockers for dysphoria, but this podcast does demonstrate how 'medicine' is influenced by many other social and political factors and does not always act in the best interest of the patient.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-protocol/id1817731112

Sweden:

This is a report on The Swedish changes - based on lack of evidence.

genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

France:

The latest from National Academy of Medicine, France. They have issued a press release about treatment for gender disphoria in children and adolescents.

SEGM have translated it, but also linked up the original version.

segm.org/France-cautions-regarding-puberty-blockers-and-cross-sex-hormones-for-youth

Extract

Transgender identity is a feeling of identifying as a gender different from that assigned at birth, which is persistent and lasts more than 6 months. This experience can cause significant and prolonged distress, which can contribute to an increased risk of suicide [a].

No genetic predisposition has been found.

While this condition has been long recognized, a sharp increase in demand for medical interventions has been observed (1,2) first in North America, then in Northern Europe, and, more recently, in France, particularly among children and adolescents. A recent study of a number of high schools in Pittsburgh revealed a prevalence that is clearly higher than previously estimated in the United States (3): 10% of students declared themselves to be transgender or non-binary or were unsure of their gender [b]. In 2003, the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne diagnosed only one child with gender dysphoria, whereas today it treats nearly 200.

Whatever the mechanisms involved in adolescents - excessive engagement with social media, greater social acceptability, or influence by those in one’s social circle - this epidemic-like phenomenon manifests itself in the emergence of cases or even clusters of cases in the adolescents’ immediate surroundings (4). This primarily social problem is due, in part, to the questioning of an overly dichotomous view of gender identity by some young people.

The demand for medical interventions, due to the distress that this condition (which is not a mental illness per se) causes, leads to a growing supply of care in the form of consultations or care in specialized clinics. This involves many pediatric subspecialties. The psychiatric consultations are utilized first, and if the identity is authentic and the discomfort persists, endocrinology, gynecology and, ultimately, surgery become involved.

However, great medical caution must be taken in children and adolescents, given the vulnerability, particularly psychological, of this population and the many undesirable effects and even serious complications that can be caused by some of the therapies available. In this regard, it is important to recall the recent decision (May 2021) of the Karolinska University Hospital in Stockholm to prohibit the use of puberty blockers.

If France allows the use of puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones with parental authorization and no age limitations, the greatest caution is needed in their use, taking into account the side-effects such as the impact on growth, bone weakening, risk of sterility, emotional and intellectual consequences and, for girls, menopause-like symptoms.

I will look for the others.

@Janine2363 if you have just recently started thinking about this (which is what I am assuming from your rather naive posts) then you might find it more helpful to step away from the very experienced and knowledgeable women of Mumsnet and do some foundational reading. In no particular order:

Transgender Trend
Bayswater parents support group
Safe Schools Alliance
Trans by Helen Joyce
Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier
Time to Think by Hannah Barnes

These are all resources that were written by (mainly) women) who started from the position of deep concern for children's safety and wellbeing.

Some of the references you have cited are written by people with a specific ideological position, or who have not demonstrated that they have children's long-term health and welfare interests at heart.

You have been quite dismissive of Cass. This is the definitive study of the medical evidence of treatment for children with gender dysphoria and more and more medical bodies are endorsing its findings.

OTOH, if you are just a troll, bore off!

Janine2363

Twice you have mentioned that it is harmless to use someone's demanded pronouns. And yes, I consider any emotional manipulation turns a request into a demand.

"However, imagine a transgender colleague at work, and on purpose, misgendering that person, that would be rude, and persistently doing so would be bigoted, because it is 'reasonable' to do not see a transgender in a certain way, but it is 'unreasonable' to behave like that, because of ones belief."

"When interacting with people, different origins, different belief, different preferences, you name it, the world is a large place. Why not be polite ?"

and

"Even simpler: Why would you not use the pronouns befitting that person, it is not as if it costs us something not ?"

Perhaps when you consider it harmless and costing nothing, you are only looking at the individual rather than collectively. And that is fine. But it needs to be acknowledged that even there, there IS harm to children and vulnerable people in general in using the language of their identity.

Clinicians and researchers have been raising concerns about this for years now. That even socially transitioning children and vulnerable people has the potential to harm because it locks that person into an identity that they don't feel they can change again.

I know several sets of parents of teens who declared they had transgender identities who don't use requested pronouns, will use a 'nick name' but will not agree to the child having their school records changed etc. They do provide their child with extensive mental health support and have been clear that they would not be giving permission for hormones or surgery. Five years on, some of those children are adults and still declare they have transgender identities, but still live with their parents and they all get along fine.

Have you talked to the parents of Vince at all? Do you know what Vince's parents would want you to do as part of Vince's current treatment plan? Because some of my friends had all found counsellors that told them that it would be harmful to fully affirm with complete name changes and pronouns. Have you checked? Just because your son told you to do something, doesn't mean that is in the best interest of Vince.