Positive aspects of trans?

[eatfigs]

Now that one of the most powerful men on the planet has put his weight behind ending the influence of gender identity ideological beliefs on American government policy, I think it's fair to assume this is the beginning of the end for trans activism, not just in the US but globally.

Maybe a eulogy is premature but it got me thinking about some of the arguably more positive aspects of trans that will be on the way out too.

Such as, I like their underlying message of non-conformity with sex roles. Why shouldn't we all wear what we please, regardless of our sex? There's nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or a woman wearing trousers and a shirt.

I also like how much of the original intent, back when trans was considered a manifestation of gender dysphoria, was to be accommodating to individuals with a medical condition that caused them significant distress. Like we make accommodations for many other vulnerable or marginalised groups.

Finally I appreciate how trans gives many people a sense of community in a world that in hostile to individuals who don't conform to society's expectations. Trans activism in particular gives them a purpose.

I still fundamentally disagree with their beliefs, and everything positive I mentioned above is sullied with all the harmful nonsense they layered on top of it. But I just wanted to give a thoughtful nod to the underdog on its way down.

Hey, nothing wrong with Nutters😘

Trans is all about conformity to stereotypes, not undermining them. Notwithstanding men have historically worn make-up - and in some societies still do - make-up was made out to be exclusively a thing women did, so if you did it you were a woman. Anyone can see that silogism is bunkum, but such ideas have been pushed on children, confusing them as to the immutability of sex, and leading some down an irreversible pathway to sterility and sexual disfunction. The WES meeting that LGB Alliance shows how deeply embedded these ideas are in the infrastructure of the UK. Yes, POTUS has said that there are two sexes, man and woman, and that gender ideology has no place in legislation. The massive trans sweep against an entirely sensible EO shows that they have not gone yet. We are on the first steps away from this idiocy - which had no upsides.
Where what you like, sleep with whoever will have you, but do not pretend that a man can be a woman and enter women's sex-segregated spaces.
Until that is understood we still have a problem.

A LOT of Trans ideology is very very misognistic and full of sex based stereotypes, not to mention quite homophobic too!
Boy who likes pink? You're in the wrong body
Girl who wants to be an engineer? You're in the wrong body
Boy who doesn't like cars? You're in the wrong body
Girls who is attracted to other girls? You are in the wrong body

Great post.

Sorry @eatfigs you still have it backwards. Dylan Mulvaney is accepted because he says he is a 'girl'. If he went round wearing dresses saying he was a man he would be considered a freak, dangerous, a nutter. But trans...so stunning and brave...still a nutter, of course.

They are not "the underdogs".
Women are the oppressed group.
And I'm sure the people pulling the strings and cashing in are thinking up the next toxic way to oppress women now this gravy train is coming to an end.

I know this isn't really what you mean OP, but...

the main positive aspect of this whole debacle is how women have united against it. For many reasons. With arguments. Facts. Evidence. Strength. Solidarity. Resilience. Indefatigability. Articulateness. Patience (oh, the patience!)

The level of argument on this board is awe-inspiring sometimes. Many times.

We shouldn't have had to do it. But we have, and we will.

If he went round wearing dresses saying he was a man he would be considered a freak, dangerous, a nutter.

Who would consider him to be a freak, @Grammarnut ? I don't care if men wear dresses, kilts, whatever - it just doesn't make them women.

I’ve often thought that to actually embrace gender nonconformity, transgenderism should be exactly that - it should be about gender expression, not sex. Announcing you’re “transgender” would mean you’re drawn to the gender stereotypes of the opposite sex and want to perform them. It wouldn’t be denying your sex, just that you reject the stereotype associated with it.

it would still be sexist of course, because to even think in those terms you’s have to think a gender stereotype somehow “belongs with” a sex. And it would also not be anything new as people have been doing this forever anyway, and arguably almost everyone now doesn’t stick to a sex stereotype 100%.

but at least it wouldn’t be causing irreversible harm and playing into the hands of big pharma and greedy or experimental surgeons.

I also always laugh when transactivists think they’re in favour of gender nonconformity. For that to be true, they have to think of a TW as a man and vice versa. It shows they really do understand that, like everyone else.

Trans as a concept only exists because of rigid and harmful stereotypes of what makes a man a man, and a woman a woman.
Without these straitjackets of conformity, trans as a concept cannot exist. Its meaningless.
The whole thing is tripe and those who have always seen that have been mercilessly pursued and harassed and abused.
You'll pardon me if I fail to see a single positive thing about this abusive horrific regime of tyranny.

I suppose if there are any positives I’d say they are the rise/return of biology-based feminism because, transactivism and gender ideology naturally make anyone with critical thinking ability ponder what male and female mean and why the world is sexist in the first place.

And in a similar vein I hope that when we recover from the collective insanity that has gripped governments and institutions over this, and the huge harms are taken stock of, the outcome should be an improved understanding that lobby groups and biased, unevidenced, internally illogical nonsense shouldn’t be allowed to influence policy, law and eduction.

That obvious insight, if it happens, will come at a huge price though.

Trans activism in particular gives them a purpose.

Did you honestly type that with a straight face OP?

Sorry OP you have got every point so utterly wrong that I can only think you have done it on purpose, as a sort of reverse.

I do think many trans-identifying people get support and validation from trans groups and that whole scene, in a similar way to how some gay people do from a gay scene, and also to subcultures like goths or D&D. The only reason that’s a problem is because this particular group is reality-denying, encourages people to harm their bodies and health, and comes with a belief that everyone else must share their view and “hates them” if they don’t.

I can imagine a “transgender” subculture and scene that didn’t promote all tha, and was just about being gender-nonconforming. I hope that’s one possible way out of this.

If only being trans was about people with strangely stereotypical ideas about gender roles choosing to wear clothes associated with a particular sex.

But it’s not is it?

It’s now about medicalising and surgically mutilating children with immature brains.

It’s about bullying and harassing people who disagree with you, threatening them, getting them sacked from their jobs.

It’s about making people lie in court “ she put her penis in my vagina”.

It’s about altering the language women use about themselves, the language that describes our bodies, the language women need to understand to stay healthy.

It’s about forcing vulnerable women to accept male presence in places where they should feel safe.

It’s about granting particular men with a recognised sexual perversion access to women’s spaces to make us complicit in their sexual fantasy.

It is about a tiny minority of people, mostly men, forcing an agenda of (largely) misogyny and censorship on everyone. We are quick to call out the Taliban for their attitudes towards women, shame we aren’t quite so vociferous when it comes to the way the TRA movement is chipping away at so many of the freedoms and rights women have fought for and earned over many years.

Absolutely agree viques and it’s horrifying. But people can change and see things differently - just as people who previously knew what male and female meant now shout that it’s complicated so therefore Lia Thomas is a woman and belongs in a women’s sports category and changing room.

These people changed their view because they saw it as “right” and “kind” to think that. So I think it’s possible that as the harms become more and more evident and the logical inconsistencies and medical failures increasingly get thrashed out in court, transactivism will need to morph and rebrand. Some die-hards will persist and I’m not downplaying the possible dangers of that. But I think if it’s perceived that for example, doctors and big pharma have been exploiting trans people by encouraging them onto a conveyor belt of eye wateringly expensive medical treatment with ever-decreasing health outcomes, things like surgery-free, gender-expression-based “trans” could take off and become the new thing everyone wants to be.

The activism of the Taliban and Iranian religious zealots gives them a purpose, and no doubt a feeling of community with others who have the same beliefs, too.

You equate 'trans' with people dressing as they please, which is nonsense. People could ALWAYS dress as they please. We've had transvestites forever (in fact, I would say a good number of people who now claim to BE the opposite sex actually just like to dress up).

There is nothing positive about a movement that has persuaded many vulnerable children and young people that they were 'born in the wrong body' and pressured them to get hormones and surgery that have mutilated their healthy bodies. Many of them will never develop properly into the men and women they were meant to be because their physical development was stopped at the pre-pubescent stage. Many will never be able to reach orgasm, if the females are ever able to get pregnant they won't be able to breastfeed if they had their breasts removed, if they had genital surgery they are left with mutilated genitalia that often gives them pain, difficulty urinating and doesn't mean that they can pass as the opposite sex. The whole thing has been a horrendous, state-sanctioned, Frankenstein-like experiment on vulnerable people.

I completely disagree with you.

Trans people are just as rigid about gender as right wing people. The only difference is that if you don’t want to be the sex that you were born as then you can choose the other. It’s not a coincidence that trans woman means heavy makeup, nails, heels etc rather than the average woman in real life wearing jeans and trainers.

Gender critical people think that gender holds people back and people would be happier without it so should be abolished. A boy who likes glitter and unicorns is as masculine as a boy who likes wrestling and football. A girl who likes monster trucks and dinosaurs is as much of a female as the girl who likes fairies and ballet. It’s the complete opposite to the ideologies in the first paragraph which are so narrow and restrictive and keep people unhappy.

TRA have let down the trans people who lived peaceful lives before the activists started brainwashing people into TWAW TMAM narrative. They have made the definition of male and female unbelievably restrictive in order to make money and control women and children.

The only positive I can think of is that people with a cross dressing fetish can do it publicly now and in the right company can get praised for being stunning and brave.

I'm no expert in this subject, but I see no positive at all. All I see is an issue relevant to a tiny minority that has been blown out of all proportion, gained a ridiculous and unfathomable level of influence and threatened the rights of women, all culminating in an inevitable backlash. A backlash that will not only leave that tiny minority in a worse position, but may pave the way to harm other groups.

All the positives you list imo either exist despite this movement or are actually threatened by it. Communities have been split not created, and in the aftermath I expect to see far less validation of feelings and so on now there is fear as to where this can lead. As for the breaking down of gender stereotypes, I agree with what's been said by others, it's been the opposite.

If you’re looking for benefits to the trans movement, I guess it has led to a lot of previously closeted fetishists and narcissists feeling “empowered” to show their true colours - so now we know who they really are at least.

I’m not saying all trans people are fetishists or narcissists at all, there are plenty who aren’t, but the trans movement does seem to have been utilised by a load of these people to play out their fantasies.

The only positive thing I can see in the gender ideology movement is the fantastic people that have fought it.

They have demonstrated that in the face of insult, danger and damage to themselves that some individuals have the courage to stand up and fight back against a massive and powerful movement that seeks to crush them.

Many started out as a lone voice fighting, but I hope have seen that there are people out there who agree with them and will support them.

I hope we can gather more and more of these individuals so that we can overturn the harms.

But they are only accepting it because he rejects his maleness.

In this movement, men cannot dress or present in stereotypically culturally female ways, UNLESS they reject their maleness in some way - by saying they are a woman or non-binary or whatever. And that is what is regressive and sexist about it.

Saying men can dress and present and do what they please and still be men is true progressiveness.
Saying women can dress and present and do what they please and still be women is true progressiveness.

It HAS made it easier to see them but harder to do anything about them unfortunately
Because "being your true self" is more important than safeguarding or anything else

If you’re looking for benefits to the trans movement, I guess it has led to a lot of previously closeted fetishists and narcissists feeling “empowered” to show their true colours - so now we know who they really are at least.

On a more everyday level I’ve also found it’s sorted the sheep from the goats among people I know, colleagues, friends and family. Now I know who will go along with any old crap and throw women and children under the bus if they think it makes them look kind or gets them brownie points, and who is willing to discuss, think, ponder, and potentially adjust what they think in response to evidence and argument. (And by that I don’t mean just listen to me because I’m right! - but be willing to discuss it. I’ve also refined, clarified and changed my position on various things, especially as a result of discussions on MN.)